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September 8th, 2006, 12:02 PM
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National Security Advisor
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dundee
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Re: 2 inch mortar - small comment
where was that stated? - it needs changing to platoon-level.
As a TA rifleman in the 70's - we had the silly things, supposed to be issued 1 per platoon. They stayed locked in the armoury though as considered a waste of 2 men who could be more use doing other things. (Shermuly flares did the starshell task, just as well, HE was never issued for it, and smoke grenades did OK for the task - if more was needed the Bn 81mm mortars could be tasked.)
Only ever brought out for the annual recruits training course - so they could be shown the thing. "Here is the 2 inch mortar. Here is a smoke round. loaded so. fired so, and it may even come down in the intended county if lucky. The water bowser fitted to the land Rover behind you is for putting out the grass fires, and you will find beaters in the back as well."
At least the new 51mm mortar actually has sights on it as opposed to a white line painted on the side of the tube!
You will find it in the UK/Commonwealth OOBs used as a "grenade launcher". My original OOBs omitted it as there are no flares in SP, and the smoke round cannot be issued for weapons, plus the HE round was rarely issued. But somewhere someone in the OOB design team went hog-wild with the daft little thing  .
In reality if you want to hurt someone with the thing it is best to whack him round the head with the tube - though a 2in mortar (with the rarely issued HE ammo) killed the first King Tiger the Allies met in Normandy. It either flew down the turret hatch or set off ammo in the truck parked alongside it
Cheers
Andy
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September 8th, 2006, 01:07 PM
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Corporal
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Join Date: Nov 2005
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Re: 2 inch mortar - small comment
That quote from the OObs in the UK, ANZAC and at least one other.
As for this little tube's use in the 70s, well a serious bit doubtful. That time line I am not even considering.
As for its use in 1942 in the enjoyable surounds of the PNG Jungle it was more functional.
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September 10th, 2006, 06:28 AM
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Sergeant
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Land of the Sabbath and of the Priest
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Re: 2 inch mortar - small comment
Andy,
"In reality if you want to hurt someone with the thing it is best to whack him round the head with the tube"
I remember reading a book about British equipment in WWII: apparently Monty thought the 2in Mortar was the most useless piece of junk ever issued to British forces. He was also dismissive of its smoke capability, but grudgingly accepted that it did have a (limited) use in that regard. Your opinion was shared by people in high places!
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September 11th, 2006, 10:01 PM
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Corporal
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Re: 2 inch mortar - small comment
My point of raising the question r the 2 inch mortar is that it was a part of the weapon establishment of a standard platoon.
The question about its effectiveness in the European and North African theatres is not what I had questioned. Personally I would suspect its limited range and HE smoke effect would be a bit dubious in these theatres of operations.
As with any weapon, they all have their operating environments where they are more appropriate.
I was looking more at the SWPA where such a weapon has more potential either in terms of its kill or demoralizing effects.
As an example of the greater use of HE rounds for the 2 inch mortar in PNG on 17 July Brig J. Field, 7 Brigade, Milne Force, had an indent placed for the 2 inch mortars as: 2,800 HE and 1,400 Smoke.
This was an initial indent by Milne Force, Milne Bay. I dont have details of continuing requests after this. 24 August the Japanese landed in Milne Bay.
Also I have attached a picture from the Buna area, as an example of the 2 inch mortar in use with the fighting there.
Picture caption is:
GIROPA POINT, PAPUA. 1943-01-02. AUSTRALIAN MANNED GENERAL STUART M3 TANKS ATTACK JAPANESE PILLBOXES IN THE FINAL ASSAULT ON BUNA. AMID SHELL TORN COCONUT TREES, A MORTAR CREW FROM D COMPANY, 2/12TH BATTALION, CROUCHES BESIDE A TANK AND FIRES ON JAPANESE TROOPS 150 YARDS AWAY WHO ARE FLEEING FROM A SMASHED PILLBOX. THEY ARE SERGEANT J. CONDON (LEFT) AND LANCE CORPORAL J. TINSLEY, WITH A 2 INCH MORTAR. THIS PHOTOGRAPH WAS TAKEN DURING THE ACTUAL FIGHTING AND HAS THE TANK NUMBER, 7, OBLITERATED BY THE CENSOR.
(AWM)
The tank number seems to have been put back somewhere along the way.
There are other pictures where the 2 inch Mortar is being used by various platoons during the various battles in PNG.
Hence with the game I see a need to have these mortars included as part of the platoon structure not as an added extra buy on. It could be a case of an extra set of platoon structures for this theatre if it is consider irrelevant of other theatres of operations.
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September 12th, 2006, 05:50 AM
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National Security Advisor
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dundee
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Re: 2 inch mortar - small comment
well - whoever did the ANZAC OOB decided not to have any 2in mortars - or more likely - whoever added all those 2in mortars to the UK and Empire forces (my original UK and Empire OOBS ignored the beastie as totally irellevant), forgot the ANZACS. The ANZAC rifle platoons (Including the Euro theatre one which is presumably for those with PIATS etc instead of Boyes) is unlike the rest.
Standard British org is
heavy inf HQ section (AT weapon and 2 inch (as option in some heavy sections for those who want it as a G/L))
3 rifle sections (LMG and rifles)
ANZAC
Heavy section as HQ
2 rifle sections
1 patrol
Here - the platoon HQ seems to be "folded" into the rifle sections, and a patrol is tacked on, perhaps to represent a detached set of scouts?. (As I did not design the OOB, I have no idea why this one differs from UK standards).
It seems the best idea for ANZAC is to make sure it has UK org in line with all the other Imperial forces, and to throw in a few heavy inf platoon HQs with the 2 inch mortar in its optional GL mode for those who want the things, while dropping the compulsory patrol element and having 3 rifle sections.
I will put that on my to-do list.
Cheers
Andy
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September 12th, 2006, 10:25 AM
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Corporal
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Re: 2 inch mortar - small comment
I was going to question the current ANZAC Pl structure as its a bit strange. Anyway this seems to have solved that question alos.
With respect to the Australian platoon it would look like the following
1944 (Tropical)
PL HQ section 7/9 men as:
P Comd revolver/ Owen/Austen SMG/Rifle depended on the location and local SOPs.
Pl Sgt Rifle
Mortar Comd Rifle
Mortar No 1 Owen/Austen SMG & 2 inch Mor
Mortar No 2 Rifle
Runner Rifle
Radio/batman Rifle & radio (38 set)
If allocated
PIAT No1 PIAT
PIAT No 2 - Rifle
3 x sections 10 men each
Sect Comd Owen/Austen SMG
NO 1 - 6 Rifleman Rifle
Sect 2IC Rifle
No 1 Bren Bren
No 2 Bren Rifle
Above as per Australian Reference: INFANTRY TRAINING part VIII FIELD CRAFT, BATTLE DRILL, SECTION AND PLATOON TACTICS, 1944.
Now 1941 version is slightly different
PL HQ section 7/9 men as:
P Comd revolver/Rifle depended on the location and local SOPs.
Pl Sgt Rifle
Mortar Comd Rifle
Mortar No 1 ? & 2 inch Mor I suspect an SMG of sorts
Mortar No 2 Rifle
Runner Rifle
Radio/batman Rifle & radio (38 set)
If allocated
ATR No1 ATR
ATR No 2 - Rifle
3 x sections 10 men each
Sect Comd SMG/Rifle depends on local allocation
NO 1 - 6 Rifleman Rifle
Sect 2IC Rifle
No 1 Bren Bren
No 2 Bren Rifle
How that equates to the KIWIs in North Africa, Syria and Europe is another question. I suspect somewhat similar.
Now how all that fits into your game structure is another thing.
My personal preference is to separate the Mor and AT weapons and make them individual gprs, but that is my personal pref and I doubt that suits the game engine and other players. Too many small groups.
So how its all glued together is your decision.
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September 12th, 2006, 09:48 PM
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Corporal
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Join Date: Nov 2005
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Re: 2 inch mortar - small comment
Small note the 1941 version does not ahve a 3 man mortar team it was only 2 men.
The 1944 revision formally introduced the concept of the 3 man team.
So the 41 version should be:
PL HQ section 7/9 men as:
P Comd revolver/Rifle depended on the location and local SOPs.
Pl Sgt Rifle
Mortar No 1 ? & 2 inch Mor I suspect an SMG of sorts
Mortar No 2 Rifle
Runner Rifle
Radio/batman Rifle & radio (38 set)
If allocated
ATR No1 ATR
ATR No 2 - Rifle
3 x sections 10 men each
Sect Comd SMG/Rifle depends on local allocation
NO 1 - 6 Rifleman Rifle
Sect 2IC Rifle
No 1 Bren Bren
No 2 Bren Rifle
Also in many cases in PNG Pl Comds carried rifles and all Offrs and NCOs removed their badges of rank. This was to make every one look the same so Officres and NCOs would not be picked out by Japanese snipers.
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