kwk 38 cannon or machinegun

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan,
So just let me check, You dont want to change back from burst to single shots because we wont run out of rounds quick enough? So instead the designers should somehow work out what the accuracy should be changed to if we want to factor zeroing in for the number of rounds in a burst (which is probably not possible as it appears zeroing is a function of no of bursts not rounds in a burst) and change the code to call multiple hit routines, when the alternative is to just change the ammo loadouts for the different vehicles back to what they were in v6 of the game?
By the way what happens I wonder if the first round in a burst destroys the target? dont forget were not firing whole magazines just single, albiet fast, aimed shots, then the the rest of our "burst" 8 more rounds is wasted, right? what of the second round in the "burst" is satisfactory? Heres an example of the problem,
For antipersonal work these guns have a coaxial MG so the HE rounds are mostly for soft targets such as trucks AT guns etc, I did a test, Using 222 as our example with HE Kill set to 1 and then to 12, everything else unchanged. Firing at trucks at close range it takes 2 shots to destroy the truck in both cases (HEk of 1 and HEk of 12). So with burst modeling we have to spend 18 HE rounds to do 2 rounds work, No matter what burst size you choose you will "lose" a goodly proportion of your HE and AP rounds because of this effect. So Sdkfz 222 with the "correct" ammo loadout of 90 HE can destroy 45 trucks in a game, but with the current loadout of 10 HE it can destroy 5 trucks only.
Soft vehicle effect is I think a very strong argument for changing the HE loadout back to the actual number of rounds as in v6 of the game. ie increasing the HE Kill doesnt compensate for the change of ammunition from single shots to bursts.
Getting on to target involves a lot of factors other than ROF; range, vision, optics, traverse and elevation speeds all play a part.
A LMG MG42 can also fire off its complete ammo load in a matter of minutes, did it?


Changing back to single shots only downside is that we have to assume the gunners are firing single aimed shots ie have some training.
disadvantages of using bursts are
Because of limitations in how bursts are modeled the majority of rounds now have no effect
For HE shell types the increase of HEK does not compensate for this loss. AP shell types are uncompensated.
Hit routine needs to be called several times for AP burst modeling to be correct but how to handle first round hit?

Regards Chuck.

[narwan]

Don't put words in my mouth. Size of burst, accuracy of weapon and HEK are all related. What I said is that IF one would want to change the burst size you'd have to think of the other two too. Just as the designers have already done for the current version. THAT is all.

Again you seem to miss the point of abstracting real world effects into a workable game system by coming up with an example were real world effects aren't exactly matched by what the game has to offer. Guess what, it doesn't matter which way you go to model this, one will always be able to come with such an example. And not just for this gun. It's inherent of ANY model, game or no game.

This micromanaging is pointless. Take that final question for example "how to handle first round hits". Doesn't matter. Just like it doesn't matter that if an infantry squad fires their rifles and kills a sniper on the first try, ALL riflemen in the squad effectively lose a round of ammo even though the first one to fire could have hit the sniper. It's an abstraction.
If you're so worried about first round hits, just assume that the gunner isn't sure (and often can't even be sure) if the target is really out with the first round so puts a few more rounds in it. Makes sense since he can do that very rapidly with this gun and he's got plenty of ammo. He could wait a few moments to get a clearer picture, with the risk of being treated on for example a handgrenade or not wait and just put a few more in there. Better to be safe than sorry, right? Sounds realistic to me too.

There's no doubt for me that this weapon is far better modelled as a burst fire weapon than as a single shot weapon (so a big no on going back to v6 of the DOS game on this). And as I said earlier, if you assume the burst to contain 5 rounds of the relevant ammo type and assuming that the ammo was stacked alternating between HE and AP you end up with what you have now.


Narwan

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
In the real world yes he has plenty of Ammo in the game world he effectivly has only 10 AP rounds as he has to fire a full burst each time. I am not micromanaging I am pointing out that everytime sdkfz 222 hits a kills a target with its first round it will always then proceed to pump a further 8 rounds inot the target very unrealistic. Please take the time to read and understand my posts as otherwise you are forcing me to repeat what I have already said to help you understand my point. You are very good at saying burst is better but you fail to supply much justification, you think it is more realistic which obviously it isnt and other than that the only contribution you have made is to say that the rate of ammo usage, all AT expended in 6 minutes seems correct again this is obviously wrong.
Best Chuck.

[Mobhack]

Chuck

The panzer 2s have 36 bursts for its 20mm autocannon. Various versions have slightly more or less allocated to HE or AP/APCR but you usually have 16 to 20 AP bursts in the mix (about 5 being APCR where fitted), and not the 10 you are claiming.

All autocannon have been reworked to bursts, in both WW2 and MBT, so they no longer have the "fire all day" ability of SP1 and SP2. Also involved in this was a recalculation of the terminal effects of bursts for both HE and AP. That is the way the oobs are, and this will not be changed.

As usual - you want a particular viewpoint. In this case that the thing is a single shot weapon which can fire all day. If that is your particular world view then as usual, you have the solution avalable to you that we always suggest - we provide the Mobhack editor for this purpose. Simply edit the ammo loads to whay you believe they should be, and then adjust the terminal effects to be for single shots (not bursts, or for 3 round (say) bursts) and then run the oobs through the cost calculator. Also - remeber to edit any that are marked as "autocannon" class to normal guns etc. If you then think these OOBS are worth sharing with the user community - then release them as "chucks modified OOBS" or suchlike.

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

Or simply run your game with the V6 OOB's since these seem to be the ones you prefer. I have modified the AC guns in the master OOBs to "5 round bursts" to match the tank guns. That's the way that weapon in our OOB's will be handled and that's as far as I'm going with this. If you disagree ( as I'm sure you do ) then follow Andys advise and release your own OOB set.

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
The reason I mention v6 is that Clause intimated that noone knows who or why or when these changes came about. So i thought that I could help him by pointing out when the changes occoured then maybe the person responsible could say yes thats right I did that because these weapons can only fire automatic or whatever.
Depending on what the terminal effect adjustment actually are I think most people would agree that 3 round HE bursts and single shot AP would be the best solution, making the old 90 90 loadout into 30 90. But thanks for giving the ACs some more bursts, 234/1 should be 48 48.
Best regards Chuck.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Andy
First nowhere have I claimed that panzer 2 has 10 bursts I have been using sdkfz 222 as my example which does have 10 bursts which is obviosly, patently ridiculous, unless of course it is an anti aircraft unit which it isnt. I have chosen this unit for my example as having had an extreme reduction in ammo loadout it best illustrates the points I am making. the same problems exist with pz 2 but to a lesser degree.

No with single shots it can't fire all day it can fire for about one hour (180 loadout).

Dont forget Ive already shown you where a completely ficticous formation(mech inf coy) and unit (armoured mortar) can be found in your OOB, would anyone have cared if they were missing from some obscure OOB id posted? Because I perserverd with those two mistakes now everyone can enjoy a more realistic OOB. So when I hear the old "use Mobhack" to me this sounds like "get lost were not interested". Isnt this forum for discussing your game isnt that what I am doing? I might point out that these current changes I am suggesting arnt my particular viewpoint. I am pointing out where your OOB and reality dont match. In this case in particular I have pointed out that the cost of using bursts is very high in performance terms, I notice that none of the posters disagreeing with me addressed these points perhaps you could? Ive listed them below for you, Also I notice that yes I am correct in what I am saying ACs have been changed down to 5 round bursts, would this have happened if I hadnt started this thread?

So my question to you Andy is "What are the changes to terminal effects that are meant to compensate for the decrease in available shots? you can answer this by addressing the points below

Only one AP round in each burst actually has an opportunity to penetrate the target.
The number of soft targets that can be destroyed is reduced.
When firing single shots each successive shot is more accurate, As each shot is now a burst, all "extra" shots in a burst are wasted when aquiring a target.