3in 20cwt AA and 3.7in AA not found?

[Mobhack]

Why? - well the only AAA weapons modelled in this game are those which have on board AAA sights and are used to shoot at individual aircraft weaving about at low altitudes.

Those weapons are director-controlled pieces which fire barrages at medium and higher level to take on formations of level bombers. So - not battlefield weapons.

Cheers
Andy

[Cross]

Hi Andy,

Thanks for your prompt response. If you’d allow me to be “devil’s advocate” for a moment, then perhaps I’d better understand why the 3in. 20cwt AA and its successor the 3.7in. are MIA.

In the OOB the Germans have the Ju88, He-177, He111 et al, which are designated in the OOB as “level bombers”. The Brits have the Lancaster (which carries 22x500lb eggs) this is clearly not a ground attack aircraft expected to fly low and weave (Dambusters raid excepted). So if we have level bombers in the OOB shouldn’t we have a widely issued weapon designed to counter them?

What about Para drops where I’m assuming the Ju52 will be flying straight and level and probably quite high. Wouldn’t it be more realistic to have FlaK guns other than only the Bofors to defend yourself with?

As for the long range issue, aren’t many AAA ranges in SP easily 3 or 4 KM across the map (not including elevation); where the 3/3.7in sights would function well?

Aren’t planes on the SP map actually flying straight and level for the most part, because they are actually in their attack run?

I understand that both the 3in and 3.7in had optical sights. If these guns could not engage close targets – in the air – then does anyone know their minimum range?

I read something re: German 88mm AAA:
Heavy antiaircraft artillery cannot be used against planes flying at altitudes of less than 1,200 feet directly over the battery.

Is there a way to put a min. range on AAA, similar to indirect fire having a min. range?

The Germans have the 8.8cm FlaK 18 and 36 in their OOB. They also have the AT version and the Gun Empl in the OOB. Why should the RAF boys face 8.8cm FlaK, while the Luftwaffe doesn’t have to worry about 3.7in FlaK?

SPWAW has the 3in in its OOB (disclaimer: I would not use SPWAW as a benchmark, that belongs to SPWW2 :-) but SPWAW must have some rationale for its inclusion.

Additional info I discovered about these guns during a little research:
• 3in used the same carriage as the Bofors, but were mounted on other carriages/vehicles.
• Apparently the 3in was also issued in a “low-level” version.
• 3in and 3.7in were often used for indirect fire
• They were only very occasionally used for ATk purposes. Eg. Tobruk and other desert battles.
• The 3.7in gun was considered an excellent AAA, and was superior to its German counterpart - the 88mm – in an AA role. However, the 3.7 was much more cumbersome than the 88.
• The 3in had a ROF of 25 rounds a min, the 3.7in a ROF of I think 10/12 RPM.

You guys have more experience and knowledge than I, so I will respect your decision, but I thought it interesting to bring these issues up.

Cheers,
Cross

[PatG]

"What about Para drops where I’m assuming the Ju52 will be flying straight and level and probably quite high."

As I recall about 350' was the norm for Fallschirmjager. This page supports this height.

[Cross]

Hi Pat,

Thanks for that info. I wasn't sure about the drop altitude. I think in my minds eye I was
thinking about Operation Market Garden where they were dropped from far higher;
in fact this was part of the early problems scattering them too far and wide.

Then there are the gliders, here's a quote regarding Op. Market Garden:

"From this operation there were three glider pilots slightly wounded while making landings. Gliders
were cut at 900’ to 2500’ at 120 mph indicated. The high altitude of some of the planes was due to the formation becoming stacked up.
Flak encountered: heavy and light, moderate and accurate user Veghel, Uden, Volkel, and north of LZ."

I have read that the US 82nd Airborne established a drop altitude of 600ft during WWII.

In any case I'm not sure of the relevance, because it remains that the planes will be flying staight and level,
not "weaving" and the chances are they'll be over 20 hexes away (1 KM, or 3,281 Feet)

So can British 3in and 3.7in AAA engage targets on a 6KM by 7KM SP map? And why or why not?

I guess the question is about the type of sights used by these guns and there minimum range.
Clearly SPCamo have allowed the 88mm FlaK guns in SP, so how are there sights so superior to the Brit sighting system.
Perhaps the answer is to remove the 88mm FlaK gun from the German OOB to even the playing field and make things fair.
If Heavy AA is not allowed then shouldn't that include the 88?

Thanks for the feedback.
Cross

[pdoktar]

88 is there to be used as on-map direct-fire support weapon, mainly Anti-Tank. It is not there to shoot at enemy aircraft. The reason it is called FlaK 18 or FlaK 36 is to differentiate it from the pure same-caliber tank killers, like 88mm PaK 44. However the purpose of these guns in-game is exactly the same, mainly to blast matildas, t-34s, Kvs, etc.

[Cross]

OK, got it. I was under assumption that the 88 FlaK had the ability to shoot down planes.

So this means if the 3in and 3.7in were included in the Brit OOB, they would only have a direct and indirect fire role.

In that case, I could see some situations where they may make an interesting addition to a battle. There are other weapons that would work just fine, but part of the point of OOBs is to provide diversity and historical accuracy, particularly in historical scenarios.

Cheers,
Cross

[pdoktar]

Do a little more research and present your results to the developers here. Maybe they´ll include 3in AA and 3.7in AA in the next episodes of WinSPWW2 to come. Or just use mobhack yourself and make units you see fit for GB.