TDM-ModPack 2.00 BETA

[oleg]

I think there may be some general setup problem with TDM-Mod Pack:

As most people already know, there is a bug/feature which cause problems with random race picking: SEIV does not allow a race to have several advanced traits with combined points exceeding the race set-up limit, even if you make up deficit buy reducing race traits.
Example: if you have Aquileans (organic+advanced storage=2500) as a random race in 2000 game, it will start with organic trait only and 1000 points left unused. At the same time, Rage (advanced storage+propulsion expert=2000) will have all points utilized.

Of course, as documented by Master Belisarious in the readme files of Aquelians and Pyrochette , it can be easily solved by always using .emp files for such races. This is nice and simple when you have one or two problematic races, but look on TDM-Mod pack -
Aquelian, Narn, Pyrochette, Shadows, Ukra-tal, Toron, Xiati and may be some more races all have advanced traits worth 2500 at 2000 strart.

Thus, when I start a new game I have few options:

If galaxy is huge, I can pick all these races .emp files and still have enough room to put few random races. No big deal.

However, If galaxy is medium/small and/or I want only few AI races I have a dilemma:
Either disable random AI generation and pick up exactly what races I want eliminating quite a big slice of game randomness and fun or, if for some silly reason I want some elements of surprise and uncertanity, take a risk that one or more races will start with 1000 handicap !

Therefore, I propose that all TDM-races should be changed to accomodate this bug/feature. Of cource, .emp files can still be set as intended, but AI_genral.txt files changed. After all, it is in moddler' own interest that his/her race will not nave a 1000 penalty if it is used as a random race in TDM-Mod Pack !

Oleg

[Rollo]

Alpha Kodiak,
if you are making changes anyway, consider putting a Quantum Reactor on the colony ships before cargo storage. The reason for the current slow expansion of the Rage in my test game is that most of the colonizers are out of fuel.

Rollo

edit: typo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 13 November 2001).]

[Alpha Kodiak]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rollo:
Alpha Kodiak,
if you are making changes anyway, consider putting a Quantum Reactor on the colony ships before cargo storage. The reason for the current slow expansion of the Rage in my test game is that most of the colonizers are out of fuel.

Rollo

edit: typo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 13 November 2001).]

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It is in my set of changes underway. Both the Vaxin and the Rage will have LC based colonizers with either quantum reactors when available, or extra supply storage. Tests with the Vaxin are looking good so far.

The only downside comes in a full-tech game. The first colonizers are coming out with quantum reactors even though they are only going a short distance. They are more expensive than necessary, though fortunately, Space Yard IIIs can still produce them in 2 turns.

[Rollo]

Alpha Kodiak,
yeah I know. That is some waste of resources in full tech games. One way around that would be restricting the maximum size to be built in the *very* early game to 310kt and not include Quantum Reactors in normal colonizers, since you are using advanced colonizers with LC hulls later that will carry them. I have run into a similar problem with the Vikings who use CR for advanced colonizers (couldn't fit all the goodies that I wanted into a LC ). I don't really want them to be built in the early full tech game, so I set the "maximum ship size from start" in the settings.txt to 410 for the first turns. However, there seems to be a (possible) bug with that. The AI will not use the specified settings in a game with sim movement, turn based works fine. I have posted that some time ago, but got no confirmation on it (Well, I didn't get any answer that it Does work, either. So I guess nobody bothered to check). If somebody could try to reproduce that, I would appreciate it. I just don't want to send in a bug report that has not been confirmed by at least one other person.

Mephisto, I have noticed that in the beta patch4 the Orks/Krill use the 33s again for the research. That had been fixed in patch3, but has somehow crawled back in (maybe it is deliberate, so just ignore me if that is the case ).

Oleg, I agree with what you said about the advanced traits in the general.txt file.

Rollo

[Rollo]

New Statistics up to turn 150:
The Vikings have taken the lead now. That means we have three big empires now of about equal size and all of them are not really fond of each other. No major battles, yet, as all of them are pretty far apart. The overall situation hasn't changed much, though.

Sorry about no more information, I wanted to post this yesterday, but couldn't get to the forum. Don't have time to write more now.

Rollo

[capnq]

Aquilaeian_AI_General.txt has a typo:

Race Opt 2 Num Characteristics should be 11. The 4th and 5th characteristic are both numbered 4, so the 5th thru 11th should be renumbered.

At some point, the Ork .emp files changed name formats; if you used the beta updates, you have duplicate files named "Ork_2000" and "Ork 2000", etc.

quote:

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As most people already know, there is a bug/feature which cause problems with random race picking: SEIV does not allow a race to have several advanced traits with combined points exceeding the race set-up limit, even if you make up deficit buy reducing race traits.

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I'm not certain this is an accurate description of the "bug". It was stated in another thread that the random empires are chosen from the .emp folder; it appears the race settings from AI_General files aren't used there. It isn't clear to me where the race options are used; the Quick Start page looks at the AI_General files, but Quick Start is always a 2000 point game. Race Options 2 and 3 are never called by the software, AFAICT.

I went through and checked all the .emp files via Add Existing to a 5000 point start. Every ModPack race spent exactly as many points as labelled; all the original races that haven't been modified for the ModPack only have 2000 point Versions.

------------------
Cap'n Q
My first SE IV mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[This message has been edited by capnq (edited 15 November 2001).]

[geoschmo]

quote:

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Stated by OlegAs most people already know, there is a bug/feature which cause problems with random race picking: SEIV does not allow a race to have several advanced traits with combined points exceeding the race set-up limit, even if you make up deficit buy reducing race traits.

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quote:

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Stated by CapnqI'm not certain this is an accurate description of the "bug". It was stated in another thread that the random empires are chosen from the .emp folder; it appears the race settings from AI_General files aren't used there. It isn't clear to me where the race options are used; the Quick Start page looks at the AI_General files, but Quick Start is always a 2000 point game. Race Options 2 and 3 are never called by the software, AFAICT.

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Actually I believe Oleg stated the bug pretty well, but I believe it's bug that was fixed in 1.41. Is it back? I haven't played with ai's in a while.

Random placed empires do not use the .emp files. I know that for a fact. Regardless of whether it's a standard or quick start game. They do use the ai_general files. The only use of .emp files is if you specifically place them in the players screen at game startup.

Geoschmo