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  #1  
Old October 15th, 2006, 08:14 PM

Possum Possum is offline
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Default Re: OT: Al Ahram

Quote:
AMF said:
Quote:
Possum said:
We may disagree with everything they say and believe, but any insight into the thinking of our enemies is always valuable.
As far as I can tell, Al-Ahram is a regional egyptian paper whose audeince is people in the middle east. I would therefore caution that these people are not "our enemies" per se - taking "we" to mean the US and it's allies in the Global War on Terror, then our enemies are most certainly NOT the entire people of the middle east - rather, our enemies are Osama Bin Laden, and various other terrorists and people like him around the world. The people we are most desperately trying to make into our friends are, in fact, the moderate Arabs in the region.

A minor point that probably didn't need to be made explicit, but it is an important distinction nonetheless.
AMF, I see the point you're trying to make, but let's not delude ourselves with PC-ness here.

How much of Al-Ahram did you read?

I've been reading it semi-regularly for 2 years now, since I was shown this weekly special back in October 2004.

The basic editorial stance of Al Ahram is -

1. Hatred of the US and all US citizens.

2. Hatred of Israel and all jews.

3. Dedication to the extermination of the modern state of Israel.

4. Support for all anti-US and anti-Israel terrorists.

If that doesn't make them our enemies, then what does it take?

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:20
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  #2  
Old October 16th, 2006, 02:37 AM

AMF AMF is offline
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Default Re: OT: Al Ahram

WE're talking past each other here.

I said: "our enemies are most certainly NOT the entire people of the middle east - rather, our enemies are Osama Bin Laden, and various other terrorists and people like him around the world. The people we are most desperately trying to make into our friends are, in fact, the moderate Arabs in the region."

I said this becuase you said: "If anybody here is really interested in what people in the Middle East think...Check out Al Ahram...[and]...any insight into the thinking of our enemies is always valuable"

Implying that the entire people of the middle east are our enemies. Which is totally wrong.

Now, whether or not Al Ahram represents "the mainstream" or "fundamentalists" or, indeed, whether those are in fact the same things, are different questions (and one's that I'm not really qualified to answer at the moment).
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Old October 16th, 2006, 09:30 PM

Possum Possum is offline
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Default Re: OT: Al Ahram

I disagree.

When it comes to any conflict between "infidels" (that's you and me) and any islamic state, other islamics will support the islamic state against the infidel every time.

It doesn't matter whether we were right or wrong to invade Iraq (I tend to think the latter myself); the mere fact that we are occupying Iraq makes all islamic people hate us.

IMO, the entire middle east outside of Israel and possibly Turkey are our de facto enemies, regardless of the diplomatic niceties.

The problem with your position is the phrase "moderate islamics". There ain't no such thing, bro, there just ain't no such thing.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 09:46 PM

Phoenix-D Phoenix-D is offline
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Default Re: OT: Al Ahram

Minor problem with that position, Possum. Namely the lowest estimate I've seen puts the Muslim population at 1.6 million..US citizens.

Going to be breaking out the concentrations camps anytime soon?
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Old October 16th, 2006, 09:54 PM

Possum Possum is offline
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Default Re: OT: Al Ahram

Low blow, Phoenix. That's a personal insult, and I object.

I did not, and will not ever, suggest any such thing.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 10:27 PM

Phoenix-D Phoenix-D is offline
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Default Re: OT: Al Ahram

You start insuinating that every Muslim is the enemy and I'll start pointing out the ad absurdem consequences of that. I don't think you would, but there are those who would, and they use statements very similar to yours.

Your statement was insulting to pretty much every non-insane Muslim on the face of the planet, by the way. Adds up to several hundred million people.
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Old October 17th, 2006, 02:24 AM

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Default Re: OT: Al Ahram

My point is less highfalutin': every single bit of offical national strategy document, military policy document, or any other formal position by the US (and coalition powers involved in the GWOT) states that it is official policy to promote relations with muslims, yes, moderate muslims, and that it is necessary to do so if this "long war" is ever going to suceed. That's what I mean when I say, formally, that the people of the mideast or muslims in general are not, in any way shape or form, considered "the enemy" - becuase it is our (US) national military policy.

However, there are two other important points to be made:

First, yes, there are moderate (and secular)muslims. I live in a moderate muslim country, filled with moderate muslims who drink beer and do all sorts of other things that fundamentalist muslims don't. I think they drive as bad as anyone from Boston, but that's not a reason to hate them, or declare them the enemy. In fact, empowering moderate muslims, and gaining their friendship and assistance, are the only way to win this war. If suddenly tomorrow all the muslims in the world decided they didn't want to cooperate with the US, then our war effort would grind to a halt overnight. And so when people start implying or outright saying that "all muslims are our enemy" then it makes my job, and the job of every service-member out here, that much more difficult and dangerous. We're trying to win this war, and find OBL, and declaring war on an entire religion is not the way to do that.

Second, one fights wars against people NOT regions. So, to state that "IMO, the entire middle east outside of Israel and possibly Turkey are our de facto enemies, regardless of the diplomatic niceties." is just nonesensical to me.
How much do you know about Turkey by the way? They are exactly the sort of Muslims that I'm talking about when I say moderate (and very much secular).

In fact, I think you're also conflating people and geography and religion. One does not equal the other.

Note the following (from wikipedia)"There are estimated to be 1.4 billion adherents, making Islam the second-largest religion in the world...Today, Muslims may be found throughout the world, particularly in the Middle East, North Africa, South Asia and Southeast Asia. The majority of Muslims are not Arabs; only 20 percent of Muslims originate from Arab countries. Islam is the second largest religion in the United Kingdom, and many other European countries, including France, which has the largest Muslim population in Western Europe. If current trends continue it will soon become the second-largest religion in the United States."

EDIT: deleted constipated and duplicate writing, added last line of thinking
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Old October 17th, 2006, 09:32 PM

Possum Possum is offline
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Default Re: OT: Al Ahram

Quote:
Phoenix-D said:
You start insuinating that every Muslim is the enemy and I'll start pointing out the ad absurdem consequences of that. I don't think you would, but there are those who would, and they use statements very similar to yours.

Your statement was insulting to pretty much every non-insane Muslim on the face of the planet, by the way. Adds up to several hundred million people.
Phoenix, let me quote you from the forum rules, section 3

"If you post in this forum, we expect you to contribute positively to a conversation. If you disagree with someone, great, explain your point of view, have an open discussion. Please do not disparage the other person. Personal attacks are unacceptable. They just lower the brow of all involved. If you don't like someone, talk about it on ICQ, MSN, AIM, YIM, your journal, or your blogger, but not here. People who bait or bash members or mods may be banned without notice.

Flaming, humiliating, ridiculing, or belittling other members will not be tolerated. This includes blatant disrespect of others whether it is through negative language or general attitude. We see no difference between straight out calling someone stupid and using creative language and attitude to imply that person is stupid."

I have quoted the whole first 2 paragraphs, rather than a snippet, so nobody can say that I was quoting out of context.

Now, can you honestly claim that your reply does not violate this section?

No, you cannot. It was a gratuitous personal attack, made solely because you did not like the opinion I was expressing.
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