Balance on small maps

[alexti]

I think that idea of dormant/imprisoned pretenders not giving bless sounds better and better. If dormant pretender awakes at turn 13, it still in time to benefit from sacred blessed troops while giving time other strategies to prepare. So dormant pretender will still make sense with blessing strategies. Of course dormant/imprisoned pretenders are useful in other cases too. Rainbow mage is probably practical dormant, if one takes a pretender to cover missing magic or to cast big spells later, imprisoned pretender look attractive. SC pretender can also be dormant while the required spells and items are being prepared.

So it seems, that there would be plenty of options and everything would have some use if non-active pretenders wouldn't provide blessing effects. Or if they were providing only minimal effects as it was suggested.

[Theonlystd]

I dont have any mp experience.


But in Sp Blessings Really makes it feel like easy mode with the dormant option

Playing with Sauromatia

Using the Ophedia Lizard calvary things. With a 9f/9w bless.

40 of those and about 40 archers killed like 130 Jotun Giants of varying kinds with all of 6calvary losses and like 10 archers...

[isodea]

I support the change with the sleeping pretenders aswell. Helhirdings are strong...(thinking of my last battle with them) ouch!

[Endoperez]

What about Atlantis Living Pillar rush? Or Carnute rush? Or Caelum Temple Guard rush?

Lets compare some simple things. Helhirding Vs EA Ermor' Equite of the Sacred Shroud.

Hel vs Equite
hits: 14 vs 13
prot: 10/15 vs 12/18
morl: 13 vs 13
mag.r.: 14 vs 12
str: 12 vs 11
att: 13 vs 10
def: base 14, total 19 vs base 12, total 17 BEFORE Glamour
move: 3/26 vs 2/22

Vanir also have Stealth +25 and Glamour.
Equites of the Sacred Shroud have Rejuvenation, or heal their afflictions.

Which one is better?

12 vs 20 resources.
75 vs 65 gold.



EA Ermor Principes, with 11 hp/str/att/def, cost 15 gp.
EA Helheim Huskarls, with 13 hp, 11 str, 12 att and base def 13, cost 25 gp. I'm not sure Principes bought with equal amount of gold could stand against Huskarls, even if their equipment gives them the same defence and much better protection. Of course, as recruiting Principes takes more resources, it's rare to see numbers balanced by gold cost. And of course, Vanir Huskarls are only base troops; its Hirdmen Principes should be comparable to.



I'll offer another comparison, Marverni Boar Warriors and Vanheim Vanheres.
Vanhere vs Boar Warrior

hits: 15 vs 14
prot: 12/15 vs 12/15
morl: 15 vs 13
mag.r.:14 vs 10
enc: 6 vs 5
str: 13 vs 12
att: 12/11 vs 11 after ambidext. and weapon penalties
def: 12 vs 11, before glamour
base def: 13 vs 10
move: 2/11 vs 2/10

berserk: +5 vs +3
Vanhere has Stealth +25 and Glamour.

50 gp, 15 res vs 35 gp, 15 res
Boar Warriors have better equipment. Their armor is less encumbering. They have a shield. Their final attack skill is lower than that of a dual-wielding Vanhere. Their defence with a shield is lower than that of a dual-wielding Vanhere.



It's not blesses alone. If it were, Oiorpata rushes and Equite rushes and Boar Warrior rushes would be commonplace. It's Glamour, and Stealth, and superhuman stats, and the fact that these abilities come for just 10-15 more gp. Principe is 15 gold, Hirdman is 30. If Equites and Oiorpata are 65 and 50 gp, Helhirdings should cost more than 75 gp. If Boar Warriors are 35 gp, Vanheres should cost more than 50 gp.
Another interesting comparison would be Equite of the Sacred Shroud against a White Centaur. 65 gp, light lance and better armor against 70 gp and spear and javelin, stealth, berserk, forest survival and mapmove 3, better strengh and better magic resistance. Att, def and morale are identical before berserk. Centaur Warrior's hoof is 0 dam + str, so 13 before and 16 damage after berserk, while Equite's is just 10.
Normal Equites and normal Centaur Warriors cost the same, btw.

[Nerfix]

How about you people play something else than Early Age and against someone else than EA Vanheim/Helheim before you complain? EA Vanheim/Helheim are easily the most grossly overpowered nations in the whole game and they would own even with no blesses. For Umor's sake, almost all of their units have freaking Glamour!

Niefelheim is another very powerful nation because their Niefel giants have awesome stats AND they have built-in mob counter (to an extent) in the form of Chill. They would be very nasty (though cost inefficient) even without any blesses at all.

Mictlan is very, very efficient with blesses but then again, if you are a Caelum (or pretty much anyone with missile weapons) why not just buy archers and let their units perish under a rain of arrows? I didn't see A4 bless mentioned in that W9/F9 bless... Works perhaps a bit worse in action than on paper, but I'd expect that missile weapons would work fine against them. OzeLOLs excluded, because they fly. Ouch.

Early Tien's recruitable sacreds are glass cannons for 3/4ths of the game with that 1/4th being Spring. Even on spring they are vulnerable to missiles unless you take Air with that Fire and Water. Their summonable blessables are nice though.

It's worth noting that these hard to stop rushes seem to have a number of points in common:

Nations with fast sacred troops with multiple attacks that synergize extremely well with a major fire blessing, boosted even more with a major water one.

Contact with these troops is particularly painful in EA because of the low protection around, and I guess most games are played in this Age that seems to have more of a novelty feel.

Maybe fire blessing should be changed to say:
5ap in EA
6ap in MA
7 ap in LA

That way 12 protection troopers would have a chance to survive the first hits in EA, instead of just dying in droves.

All the above is even more painful with regards to the various Vanir troops, that are maybe too good as it has been pointed (they destroy anything they run into, but they are almost untouchable themselves).

[Teraswaerto]

If the Vanir are too good, IMO it would be better to increase costs rather than make them weaker.

[Nerfix]

Teraswaerto said:
If the Vanir are too good, IMO it would be better to increase costs rather than make them weaker.

The Vanir troops should be more expensive. They are almost untouchable and from what I remember Glamour allows them to even dodge magic! Not only that, this allows an Air nation to tie down sweet, sweet targets which are then ripe for Lightning Bolt shooting. No nation has better tanking units AND cavalry than EA Vanheim/Helheim. Who care about armor when it take a severe Def penalty from swarming just to freaking hit a van/hel unit!

To put it shortly, they are grossly overpowered. I'd say that anything short of equal number of Niefel Giants or Jag Warriors with solid mage backup and with some ridiculous bless will get obliterated by a semi-skilled Van/Hel player.