The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

geoschmo · #1 November 19th, 2001, 06:44 PM

Well, Devnellicus made the Corvette 200 Kt, and upped the Frigate to 250.

He also has something called a fast courier that uses the small transport pic and is 210 Kt and allows 8 engines.

And he has five classes of fighters.

I'll try adding the movment to the hull for the SM Barge. That shold work. Thanks.

Geo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 19 November 2001).]

Vger · #2 November 19th, 2001, 06:58 PM

Hi,

Personally, I love the Courier hull and built many of them in my games to ferry troops and other units to the front quickly.

I also liked the idea of the barge and would hope you keep it if there's any chance of a change in the code.

Ciao,
V'ger gone

Suicide Junkie · #3 November 19th, 2001, 10:44 PM

quote:
Personally, I love the Courier hull and built many of them in my games to ferry troops and other units to the front quickly.
I also liked the idea of the barge and would hope you keep it if there's any chance of a change in the code

Don't worry Vger, we're not changing mods, just defining new pictures for them to use.
In that regard we are only discussing whether, and how to define a new image that could be used for those ships.

This standard does not extend beyond images and filenames.

Andr�s · #4 November 19th, 2001, 11:37 PM

That Jraenar picture was made by editing bitmaps. I do not have 3d meshes of original ships, and trying to model something that matches so good would be too hard. What I did was basically combine the dreadnought with the engines of the battlecruiser.
It was an experiment to see it if was possible, not all needed new ship sizes for all existing shipsets would be possible to make this way, but I think that there are a lot that can. The plan would be to replace most copied pictures in time.

quote:
How soon are you going to get this going? If we are going to have this ready for the CD Versions, we need to get on the ball.

Hopefully we can agree soon with the set of names. Then it will be a matter of S_J writing the copying program and dogscoff and me getting a few sample shipsets. It would be great if I can make at least the complete generic shipset, in a similar way I made tha Jraenar ship.

This is my proposition for all sizes of the neo-standard. 20 new size pictures to be added to the 29 original ones, almost dulpicating installed size

Format is
ShipPic - Alternative pic (copy source) - simple description.

Corvette - Frigate - Normal ship between ES and FG
DestroyerHeavy - Destroyer - Normal ship between DS and LC
CruiserHeavy - BattleCruiser - Normal ship between CR and BC
DreadnoughtHeavy - Dreadnought/Baseship - Normal ship between DN and baseship
Baseship - Starbase - Normal baseship
BaseshipHeavy? - Baseship/Starbase - bigger than baseship, not sure about this.
WorldShipSmall - None(use generic-neutral if not available) - Battlemoon/death star
WorldShipMedium - None(use generic-neutral if not available) - Battlemoon/death star
WorldShipLarge - None(use generic-neutral if not available) - Battlemoon/death star

ResourceShipSmall - TransportSmall - ship with reduced manteinance for remote mining
ResourceShipLarge - TransportLarge - the same but bigger

CarrierTiny - CarrierLight - carrier smaller than light carrier
CarrierMassive - CarrierHeavy - carrier bigger than heavy carrier

BaseOutpost - BattleStation - Base between battestation and starbase

ColonyShipLarge - ColonyShip - bigger Version of colony ship

TransportTiny - TransportSmall - smaller transport, presumable faster
Should we add a massive one?

FighterHuge - FighterLarge - bigger fighter
FighterMassive - FighterLarge/Escort - even bigger fighter

InfantryTroop - RacePortrait/Pop TroopSmall- very small troop
TroopHuge - TroopLarge - bigger troop

Here's the analysis of vehicle sizes in different mods I used to came up with the conclusion above. I think I considered the most important mods by now. I include my starwars mod only because it was mentioned in this thread, but I don't think it is comparable with those other great mods.

All vehicle sizes are listed in this format:
Name - PicName - Tonnage - Mod(s) where it appears

Mods:
None - Standard Unmoded Game
DN - Devnull Mod
P&N - Pirates & Nomads
UM - Ultimate Mod
SW - Star Wars Mod

Normal Ships:
Escort - Escort - 150 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Corvette - Frigate - 200 - DN
Frigate - Frigate - 200 - None/DN(250kt)/P&N/UM/SW
Monitor - Frigate - 250 - UM
Destroyer - Destroyer - 300 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Heavy Destroyer - Destroyer - 350 - DN/UM(GunShip)
Light Cruiser - LightCruiser - 400 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Orbital Battleship - Cruiser - 750 (slow) - UM
Cruiser - Cruiser - 500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Heavy Cruiser - BattleCruiser - 600 - DN/UM(575)
Battle Cruiser - BattleCruiser - 600 - None/DN(650kt)/P&N/UM/SW
Battleship - Battleship - 800 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Dreadnought - Dreadnought - 1000 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Super Dreadnought - Dreadnought - 1250 - DN/UM(Behemoth)
Baseship - Starbase - 1500 - None/DN(Monitor)/P&N/UM/SW
Super Monitor - Starbase - 2000 - DN
BattleMoon - MassiveBaseShip - 10000 - P&N/SW(Small Death Star-15000kt)
Medium Death Star - mds - 30000 - SW
Large Death Star - lds - 60000 - SW

Both DN and UM add a 250kt ship, UM adds it as monitor, while DN adds a 200kt corvette and moves the frigate to 250. We only need 1 extra size here, either between ES and FG or between FG and DS. Corvette
DN and UM add a ship between DS and LC. DestroyerHeavy
DN and UM add a Heavy Cruiser ship between CR and BC. CruiserHeavy
DN and UM add a ship between DN and baseship. DreadnoughtHeavy
Baseships deserve their own picture. Baseship
DN super monitors are bigger than baseships, but not even close to battlemoons. Probably they should re-use the monitor/baseship picture not being worth of a new one. BaseshipHeavy?
BattleMoons and Death Stars far above the rest. WorldShipSmall - WorldShipMedium - WorldShipLarge

(UM- Malfadorian)
Galley - Escort - 650 - UM
Trireme - Cruiser - 1300 - UM
Juggernaught - Battleship - 1950 - UM
Magnus Prime - Dreadnought - 2600 - UM

UM adds this ship sizes to players with a specific racial advantage.
I don't know enough about this mod. Maybe they can use pictures to show better their real size, or maybe they are meant to look small (the galley is bigger than a battlecruiser, but looks like an escort).

Special Abilities
Observer - Escort - 130 (built in cloak) - UM
Science Ship - Destroyer - 375 (built in sensors/scanners) - UM
Stellar Manipulator Barge - TransportLarge - 2010 - DN

I'm not sure if these sizes need new pictures or can re-use the ones above.

Prospector - TransportSmall - 200 - DN
Mining Base - TransportLarge - 500 - DN

These ones are nice, maybe a ResourceShipSmall and ResourceShipLarge.

Scenario Resource Ship - Destroyer - 3000 - P&N

Not sure of what is this. It seems to be used only in scenario editing making and not normally available for players. A picture wouldn't be necessary.

Carriers:
Escort Carrier - CarrierLight - 500 - DN/UM(Converted Carrier-TransportMedium-400)
Light Carrier - CarrierLight - 800 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Carrier - Carrier - 1000 - None/DN(Fleet Carrier)/P&N/UM/SW
Heavy Carrier - CarrierHeavy - 1200 - None/DN(1300-Assault Carrier)/P&N/UM(Large Carrier)/SW
Heavy Carrier - CarrierHeavy - 1400 - UM

DN and UM add a 400-500 carrier smaller than light carrier CarrierTiny
UM adds another carrier bigger than normal heavy carrier. CarrierMassive

Bases
Space Station - SpaceStation - 500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Battle Station - BattleStation - 1500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Outpost - BattleStation - 2000 - UM
Starbase - Starbase - 2500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW

Only new base is UM outpost. Do we need a new pic? BaseOutpost

Colony Ships
Colony Ship - ColonyShip - 300 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Ark Ship - ColonyShip - 500 - DN/UM(Colonization Liner)

Dn and UM add a ColonyShipLarge
Note that although a colony ship is the same sze of destroyer, most pictures look as big as a cruiser or battlecruiser.

Transports
Fast Courier - TransportSmall - 210 - DN
Small Transport - TransportSmall - 300 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Transport - TransportMedium - 600 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Large Transport - TransportLarge - 900 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Small Freighter - TransportSmall - 320 (faster) - UM
Medium Freighter - TransportMedium - 620 (faster) - UM
Large Freighter - TransportLarge - 920 (faster) - UM

DN adds a small fast courier. TransportTiny
UM adds a second set of 3 transports, faster and slightly bigger than the first one. they shouldn't need new pics.

Fighters
Small Fighter - FighterSmall - 15 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Fighter - FighterMedium - 20 - None/DN(Interceptor)/P&N/UM/SW
Large Fighter - FighterLarge - 25 - None/DN(Assault Fighter)/P&N/UM/SW
Huge Fighter - FighterLarge - 40 - DN(35kt-Fighter-Bomber)/UM
Heavy Assault Bomber - FighterLarge - 50 - DN/UM(60kt-Skirmisher)

DN and UM add two fighters above large fighter. FighterHuge - FighterMassive

(P&N-Nomads)
Medium Fighter - FighterSmall - 20 - P&N
Large Fighter - FighterSmall - 25 - P&N
Heavy Fighter - FighterMedium - 35 - P&N
Massive Fighter - FighterLarge - 50 - P&N

P&N nomads have a set of 4 fighters, they could use one of the extra fighters above. The think big racial trait adds variations, but they shouldn't need new pics.

(TIEs)
TIE Fighter - FighterSmall - 7 - SW
TIE Bomber - FighterLarge - 11 - SW
TIE Advanced - FighterMedium - 14 - SW

And TIEs in SW use normal fighter pics.

Satellites
Small Satellite - Satellite - 80 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Satellite - Satellite - 100 - None/DN /P&N/UM/SW
Large Satellite - Satellite - 120 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW

There are no new sats, exept for the P&N think big in (100-125-150)

Mines
Small Mine - Mine - 10 - None/DN(5)/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Mine - Mine - 15 - None/DN(10)/P&N/UM/SW
Large Mine - Mine - 20 - None/DN(15)/P&N/UM/SW

DN reduces the size of mines, and only new mines are the P&N think big (12-18-25)

Troops
Light Infantry - Infantry - 1 - SW/P&N(Drop Pod)
Heavy Infantry - Infantry - 2 - SW
Small Troop - TroopSmall - 10 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Troop - TroopMedium - 15 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Large Troop - TroopLarge - 20 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Huge Troop - TroopLarge - 40 - UM

SW and P&N add an InfantryTroop
UM adds a TroopHuge
Think P&N- Think Big also adds bigger variations without needing new pics.

Weapon Platforms
Small Weapons Platform - WeapPlatformSmall - 200 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Weapons Platform - WeapPlatformMedium - 400 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Large Weapons Platform - WeapPlatformLarge - 600 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW

Nothing new here exept for the P&N think big (250-500-750)

geoschmo · #5 November 20th, 2001, 12:28 AM

20 neo-shippics makes for an extra 20 MB for the install. Zipped up for download that would add 6MB to the mod size. For Devnull that quadruples the size for the download.

I know the plan is to have a batch file pic converter or something. I guess I am just concerned that we are asking for trouble with players that just want the mod and aren't worried about the new shipsets. They might not take the time to run the utility. This would cause errors, no?

If I include the new images in the generic folder in the download, I guess that will work. That would only add about 230 k to the zip file. That way if they don't run the utility for some reason it will just pull the generic Version of the images and they won't get an error.

Geoschmo

Suicide Junkie · #6 November 20th, 2001, 03:32 AM

quote:
20 neo-shippics makes for an extra 20 MB for the install. Zipped up for download that would add 6MB to the mod size. For Devnull that quadruples the size for the download.

How many races are you including with your mod?

Each installed shipset will be increased by 1MB, almost exactly. (1.035 MB).
I know that pictures are horrendous downloads. Even one shipset is roughly the same size as my P&N mod.

You definitely need to separate the mod+generic and the addon shipsets.
Especially since these shipsets will work under any mod, and you don't want to download the same thing three or four times, once with each mod.

quote:
BaseOutpost - BattleStation - Base between battestation and starbase

How about:
Warstation (space S., battle S., war S., starbase)
or SpaceFortress (Space St. -> SpaceFortress, Battle St. -> Starbase)

quote:
BaseshipHeavy? - Baseship/Starbase - bigger than baseship, not sure about this.

Logical name, I'd go for it.

quote:
Observer - Escort - 130 (built in cloak) - UM

I would have made use of the Drone image for this

.

quote:
Not sure of what is this. It seems to be used only in scenario editing making and not normally available for players. A picture wouldn't be necessary.

Yep.

quote:
ShipPic - Alternative pic (copy source) - simple description.

Note that it is very easy to have multiple, prioritzed sources.
So the program could first look for a worldshipsmall, then massivebaseship, then worldship medium, then worldship large before giving up and using the generic image.

Andr�s · #7 November 20th, 2001, 03:49 AM

A little over 1 mb more for each shipset, that means that if I wanted to upgrade every shipset I have installed (131) I would run out of disk space.

IIRC Devnull mod includes the 20 original races, only AI and no pics. S_J your program should be able to copy from the base race directory when called from inside a mod.

I agree 6 mb extra would make a mod too big, particularly if they are just repeated pictures.
Maybe I�m exaggerating, and not the 20 sizes I mentioned are necessary, they could be reduced to 12-15, without leaving out any important pic. But it would still be a lot of space.

Think they wouldn�t mind if extra pictures were actually new pictures, in fact they would be glad to have different sizes looking different.
That�s why we were thinking about a copying utility, and why Dogscoff suggested different distributing methods. I don�t think there will be a problem with people not running the copying utility. Many people will try to run the mod without running it before, I agree. But after they see an error will check in the readme that they need to run the utility.