Useless or redundant units?

[Unwise]

Epaminondas said:I don't think saying that the Kailasa sacred are blessable is really of help, because so can the sacred of other nations. Units should be evaluated first on the basis of their raw stats.

I must respectfully disagree. If you have two units that are absolutely identical other than one being sacred, you simply cannot price the sacred one the same as the mundane one. If for no other reason then the mundane one would never be purchased... even with no bless strategy, a generic bless causes sacred troops to have better morale.

You have to look at the sacred attribute as a "raw" stat to be priced as well, and it is not one that can be assigned a set value because so very many factors come into play. Sacred archers will benefit from a water bless more than a sacred cavalry unit, which will benefit from a fire bless more than a an armored unit, which would benefit from an Earth bless more than....

The proper choice of a bless strategy and the greater availability of sacred units in one nation over others is one of the major themes of Dominions, and probably more so in Dom3 then in Dom2.

[Zen]

Unwise said:
You have to look at the sacred attribute as a "raw" stat to be priced as well, and it is not one that can be assigned a set value because so very many factors come into play. Sacred archers will benefit from a water bless more than a sacred cavalry unit, which will benefit from a fire bless more than a an armored unit, which would benefit from an Earth bless more than....

I would just have to say that Water bless is good on most cavalry, it is by far the best universal bless because not only does it give +4 Def/Quickness but your pretender recieves +1 Def for each point of Watermagic it recieves.

But you are right you do have to choose the right bless for the right units.

[Corwin]

Zen said:

I would just have to say that Water bless is good on most cavalry, it is by far the best universal bless because not only does it give +4 Def/Quickness but your pretender recieves +1 Def for each point of Watermagic it recieves.

Not really.

Considering that most plaayers who take level 9 bless and double lvl 9 bless will choose dormant or imprisoned pretender, and considering that role of single SC in the mid-late game is much less in Dom3 than it was in Dom2, and finally considering that defence attribute in Dom3 in general got a very large nerf from Illwinter (esp. so for SCs), +1 def per water level for your pretender is certainly not a major factor when evaluating water bless.

[Turin]

Heh those yakashas are one of my favourite blessable units. I tried air10 w9 n4 dom9 lady of rivers and it mops up indies and most AI troops. The usual 9 guys + priest you get per turn can beat any indie 5 province with very few losses.

in addition to combat the low protection you have e3 mages, which can easily cast legions of steel once you get const 3, but I haven´t tried that strat yet.

[Corwin]

Turin said:
Heh those yakashas are one of my favourite blessable units. I tried air10 w9 n4 dom9 lady of rivers and it mops up indies and most AI troops. The usual 9 guys + priest you get per turn can beat any indie 5 province with very few losses.

in addition to combat the low protection you have e3 mages, which can easily cast legions of steel once you get const 3, but I haven´t tried that strat yet.

Yeap, Air bless is very good for yakashas, since it take care of one of their critical weaknesses. Prot 1 is still going to hurt vs humans, if your opponent has high morale troops who won't mind smacking units with "awe". But at least the archers and most indep provinces won't be much of a problem.

[Zen]

Corwin said:
Not really.

Considering that most plaayers who take level 9 bless and double lvl 9 bless will choose dormant or imprisoned pretender, and considering that role of single SC in the mid-late game is much less in Dom3 than it was in Dom2, and finally considering that defence attribute in Dom3 in general got a very large nerf from Illwinter (esp. so for SCs), +1 def per water level for your pretender is certainly not a major factor when evaluating water bless.

Oh really? Well actually it's a huge factor if you want to go single bless. While double bless is a rusher's dream, you can't play that with every nation since they don't have usable sacreds.

Also the W9 Blue Dragon or Father of Winters is nearly as effective as the Cyclops after 2 Research (depending on your nation initial gem income) and can be crucial for some nations to hammer through HCav provinces quickly turn >5.

Maybe this is not something that you consider, but I consider initial expansion and Awakened Pretenders for early expansion for non sacred-heavy nations at least as important as double blessings with heavy sacred nations.

[Corwin]

Zen said:

Oh really? Well actually it's a huge factor if you want to go single bless. While double bless is a rusher's dream, you can't play that with every nation since they don't have usable sacreds.

Also the W9 Blue Dragon or Father of Winters is nearly as effective as the Cyclops after 2 Research (depending on your nation initial gem income) and can be crucial for some nations to hammer through HCav provinces quickly turn >5.

Maybe this is not something that you consider, but I consider initial expansion and Awakened Pretenders for early expansion for non sacred-heavy nations at least as important as double blessings with heavy sacred nations.

Initial expansion with pretender is still a valuable (and old) tactic, just like it was in Dom2.


However since now each attacker reduces defence attribute by 2, as an opposite to -1 as it used to be in Dom2, even 4 attackers will reduce your effective defence almost back to its original level. And you are usually attacked by much more than 4-5 units when you are fighing indpes with your pretender. Unless you prefer to play on indep strength 1.

+def is a nice little bonus when you take W9, however it certainly not as important factor as the effect of w9 bless on your sacred troops. And if you don't have good sacred troops, it doesn't make much sense to take W9 bless just for your pretender for inital expansion. You would be much better taking few magic paths for the same money, and buffing your pretender with low-level buffs, than with +9 def from water.


In other words - for your Dom3 pretender beneficial effect of W9 bless is smaller than beneficial effect of W4 bless was in Dom2, in vast majority of situations.

[Zen]

Corwin said:
Initial expansion with pretender is still a valuable (and old) tactic, just like it was in Dom2.


However since now each attacker reduces defence attribute by 2, as an opposite to -1 as it used to be in Dom2, even 4 attackers will reduce your effective defence almost back to its original level. And you are usually attacked by much more than 4-5 units when you are fighing indpes with your pretender. Unless you prefer to play on indep strength 1.

Or you don't have your pretender attacked by more than 3 or 4 units at a time and your pretender has fear and you can make your opponents rout effectively.

It's rare in Dom3 that I expand with just a pretender, since it's more useful to use a half-strength army and a pretender to hammer those HCav and Xbow provinces.

+def is a nice little bonus when you take W9, however it certainly not as important factor as the effect of w9 bless on your sacred troops. And if you don't have good sacred troops, it doesn't make much sense to take W9 bless just for your pretender for inital expansion. You would be much better taking few magic paths for the same money, and buffing your pretender with low-level buffs, than with +9 def from water.

I don't know about that, with the introduction of sacred summons and some few support sacred units (not hardcore sacreds) I don't think it's neccessary to not consider a bless for them. Especially since good summons especially in the early/mid game are few and far between unless you happen to like Vine Ogres.

In other words - for your Dom3 pretender beneficial effect of W9 bless is smaller than beneficial effect of W4 bless was in Dom2, in vast majority of situations.

I do not agree in a MP setting and don't agree with your assessment as far as bless situations. However, I do agree that in Dom2 water was more effective, if only for the fact that quickness affected spellcasting. I doubt anyone can say that water, as a whole path, has not gotten weaker overall from Dom2 to Dom3. If you look at their summon line, battlefield line, and evocation/thamu line, they are nearly all have a lesser impact than water did in Dom2.

[Corwin]

Zen said:

I do not agree in a MP setting and don't agree with your assessment as far as bless situations. However, I do agree that in Dom2 water was more effective, if only for the fact that quickness affected spellcasting. I doubt anyone can say that water, as a whole path, has not gotten weaker overall from Dom2 to Dom3. If you look at their summon line, battlefield line, and evocation/thamu line, they are nearly all have a lesser impact than water did in Dom2.

I think you misunderstood the part of my post as far as water bless concerned. My initial post was objection to your statement that having +9 def on a single unit (your pretender) is such a big deal in Dom3 when evaluating the merit of W9 bless.

You said (quote): "it is by far the best universal bless because not only does it give +4 Def/Quickness but your pretender recieves +1 Def for each point of Watermagic it recieves. "

I've pointed to several reasons why it is not the case anymore in Dom3, due to several changes in game mechanics.

I do agree that water school in general, as well as W9 effect on sacred troops are weaker in Dom3.

[KissBlade]

Zen said:

Oh really? Well actually it's a huge factor if you want to go single bless. While double bless is a rusher's dream, you can't play that with every nation since they don't have usable sacreds.

Also the W9 Blue Dragon or Father of Winters is nearly as effective as the Cyclops after 2 Research (depending on your nation initial gem income) and can be crucial for some nations to hammer through HCav provinces quickly turn >5.

Maybe this is not something that you consider, but I consider initial expansion and Awakened Pretenders for early expansion for non sacred-heavy nations at least as important as double blessings with heavy sacred nations.

I'll have to agree with this point entirely. If I'm not going a bless strat, an Awakened Pretender is almost always my decision just forthe quick jump boost in expansion ability. A dragon is still very adept at fending off indie 6 and the dom 9/10 cyclops/medusa build are both very effective. I do like to goof off a bit occasionally with VQ or GK chassis still though for the old time SC sake.