Downloadable retail needed?

[B0rsuk]

"Physical books are history.

The future is electronic books, end of story."

Things aren't as simple as they seem.

Just like someone above, I'm waiting for the right hardware. I'll still be reading paper books for a while, but only because of their present availablity.
As soon as I bought my music player (I refrain from using mp3 because I bought mine for oggs and Linux support) I said all cds goodbye. I only buy music cds when it's the only way to get the music I want, or I particularly respect the band. The device would fit in my mouth assuming I'd want to put it there. And it easily holds equivalent of 10 audio cds at a time. No one wants plastic, fragile and vulnerable to oxidization cds. No wonder recording industry is so desperate.
The funniest of all, sound quality is damn good, significantly better than on my PC's ac97.
---------------
Now back to topic.

Some people make it sound like putting Dominions3 on torrent and selling only patches* err I mean cdkeys would help piracy.
Don't delude yourself. It took my friend one day to find and download full version of Dominions3. Yes, I know this post will be edited soon, but it had to be said.
If Dominions3 was available for sale/download, people who pirate it could buy it instead.

I'm still waiting for my copy of Dominions3 to arrive. I paid for it on 17th, and Tuxgames is supposed to have it on 13th. All excitement is long gone. Blood and souls for round pieces of plastic !@ YeEeeaaH !
---------
Additional benefits of electronic selling:

- no need to manufacture cd's. (result: the game is cheaper)
- no need to store cd's. It costs money, too (result: the game is cheaper)
- you need electronic activation anyway (correct me if I'm wrong, but you couldn't patch Dominions2 offline).
-----------

Ultimately, it's convenience for seller versus convenience for customer. Download is convenient for customer. Shipping is convenient for seller, it seems. I suppose making customers happier doesn't pay off.

As for the manual, as someone already pointed out, hybrid solutions are possible (pdf early, just manual sent later).

------------
* a typo caused by being lost in thoughts, but EA Games actually makes you pay for patches. With money and sanity.

[Gandalf Parker]

B0rsuk said:

Some people make it sound like putting Dominions3 on torrent and selling only patches* err I mean cdkeys would help piracy.

I mentioned and cdkeys. But I didnt mention anything about it helping piracy. I just mentioned it because it would be an easier distribution to get into and IMHO it doesnt hurt things any more than any other download distribution does.

Don't delude yourself. It took my friend one day to find and download full version of Dominions3. Yes, I know this post will be edited soon, but it had to be said.
If Dominions3 was available for sale/download, people who pirate it could buy it instead.

Thats often said but doesnt tend to be true. There are people who will cross the line, and those that wont. Keeping it clear that piracy is theft tends to do the most good there.

---------
Additional benefits of electronic selling:

- no need to manufacture cd's. (result: the game is cheaper)
- no need to store cd's. It costs money, too (result: the game is cheaper)
- you need electronic activation anyway (correct me if I'm wrong, but you couldn't patch Dominions2 offline).
-----------

MAYBE you could say LESS need to manufacture and store but I doubt it. The numbers that have to be done in batches are preset by most companies so I think that would stay about the same.

Ultimately, it's convenience for seller versus convenience for customer. Download is convenient for customer. Shipping is convenient for seller, it seems. I suppose making customers happier doesn't pay off.

A crude way of putting it but true enough. There is quite abit of layout involved with digital downloads, and some major chance taking. So unless they can justify all of that with abit more than "it will make some customers happier" then it wouldnt make much sense for a company to do it. You might as well say they should give it away for free.

As for the manual, as someone already pointed out, hybrid solutions are possible (pdf early, just manual sent later).

------------
* a typo caused by being lost in thoughts, but EA Games actually makes you pay for patches. With money and sanity.

Patches and demos have gotten large. They have a measureable cost now to distribute them. Many companies are beginning to charge for access. Or for "faster service access without a waiting line" which amounts to basically the same thing.

[B0rsuk]

Gandalf Parker said:
Keeping it clear that piracy is theft tends to do the most good there.

I don't see how spreading FUD can be good. Piracy is copyright infringement. Theft is the act of taking something from someone unlawfully. When I take something from someone, he loses it. That's not the case with unathorised copying. You can argue about lost sales, but you can't prove anything, especially exact numbers. Movie critics should be put to jail, too, because they often cause much more lost sales to movie theaters. Software piracy is a crime with no victim, especially if the pirate is simply not able to purchase the thing.

It's not just money. In Poland, for example, online (abroad) payments are really hard to perform. Banks set prohibitive prices and require extra paperwork. It took me months to find a colleague whose father has a 'good enough' credit card. Not because I'm too young (22), but because it's a lot of beaurocracy and extra fees.
One thing piracy bashers consistently fail to mention is that vast majority of software pirates (especially gamers) are 13-17 years old. When you're older, studying, working (or both, like me) you don't have as much time for games. Guess what, you can't have a credit card if you're <18.

Piracy can work as a sort of advertisment, too.
And I think it was our beloved Bill who said he'd rather have people pirate windows than use linux. Charming, eh ?

[Gandalf Parker]

B0rsuk said:

I don't see how spreading FUD can be good. Piracy is copyright infringement. Theft is the act of taking something from someone unlawfully. When I take something from someone, he loses it. That's not the case with unathorised copying.

I dont think that holds up but fine, change it to being illegal then. The thing is that most of the losses being avoided are by legal owners copying software for good friends (called casual copying) so most of the efforts to fight it are simple copy protection and clarity of the crime. Piracy isnt as big a subject, nor as big a crime effort as most people think. Also, this isnt an open enough forum to discuss piracy. Join me in the alt.hackers newsgroup (I host their site) and we can discuss it more.

You can argue about lost sales, but you can't prove anything, especially exact numbers.

Guess what, you can't have a credit card if you're <18.

Piracy can work as a sort of advertisment, too.

Im older than computers. Ive been on the internet since before it was the internet. Ive heard all the argruments and seen all of the data. It doesnt amount to much.
(where can you not have a credit card if you are under 18?)

[reverend]

Gandalf Parker said:
where can you not have a credit card if you are under 18?

As far as I'm informed most European banks would only give you a credit card once you're past 18 and have a job.

[Gandalf Parker]

Hmm in the US anyone can get a credit card. Of course if you are under 18 and have to get your parents to sign for everything and they refuse, or you have zero credit rating, it might seem impossible but that doesnt mean there is a rule about it. Under those conditions anyone would have trouble getting a card but age has nothing to do with it. Just say your broke.

[Cainehill]

Eh, I once had a wonderful friend named Tho (The Homeless One) who went to college at 15. Never mind that life was a major struggle for her at that point (good looking / mature enough to be attractive to most guys/some girls, too young to drink or date them, too young to be taken seriously once people learned her age). Thing was, she was a college student at 15. Got about 10 pre-approved credit card offers, didn't require parental approval, income verification, anything. She was a bit more mature than most, didn't ruin her life with them - but imagine the ones like her that did.

[Cainehill]

Gandalf Parker said:
Patches and demos have gotten large. They have a measureable cost now to distribute them. Many companies are beginning to charge for access. Or for "faster service access without a waiting line" which amounts to basically the same thing.

No they don't - not if a company is willing to see them put on bit-torrent.

Frankly, given the _major_ success of pkzip, list.exe, etc, on shareware (both Phil and Vernor made _millions_; also authors of Telix and at least a couple dozen more programs) I'm surprised that more niche publishers aren't willing to give it a try.

[reverend]

you need electronic activation anyway (correct me if I'm wrong, but you couldn't patch Dominions2 offline).

IIRC, you could. Dom2 only connected to the server for a key-check when trying to play multiplayer.

If Dominions3 was available for sale/download, people who pirate it could buy it instead.

No. People who pirate it would continue to do so. Reasons I heard so far were always along the line of "too expensive", "only play it for a few days anyway" or "why buy it when you get it for free".

It might be that SOME people would buy it instead, those that can't get any retailer to ship it to them. But then I can already bet that you would need more than just credit card or paypal options for them to be able to pay, even if they want to.


Digital distribution can work, but as pointed out, it simply isn't as easy to do as you say.

My personal problem: With the rare and unexpected exception of UBIs German online shop, every single company expected me to pay with credit card. I don't have one. I don't know anybody who has one and would use it online. Add that to the fact that I'd really rather have a solid DVD case with the real CD than some self-burnt stuff. It just looks better on your CD shelf.


I'm no technophobe, I have my diploma in computer-science. But maybe because of that, I also see the problems companies have to face when they try to establish a solution for downloadable content. And my experiences so far (steam, ubi, even microsofts MSDNAA) tend to sway me in the direction of saying: Sometimes, the 'slow' way is better.

If anybody comes in and sees my LEGALLY self-burnt copy of XP, how do I convince him that it is, in fact, legally downloaded and burnt? I have nothing to it but my word and a textfile that includes my name and a license key. If it were delivered (could have been, if I had been willing to pay extra), I would have a CD with that holographic stuff and a 'more real' license.


So, unless I have no other choice (UBI and the Pe-2 addon for Pacific Fighters) I will ALWAYS have my software ordered and delivered the old way.

[Agrajag]

B0rsuk said:
Don't delude yourself. It took my friend one day to find and download full version of Dominions3. Yes, I know this post will be edited soon, but it had to be said.

Actually, if you know where you can get a pirated version of the game, it might be worthwhile to point out to Shrapnel exactly where that is, so they can do something about it.
And no, I don't mean a lawsuit, they could just ask the website to remove the link, I think that the same was done with GalcivII and a website that hosted a link to a torrent for the game, where they asked the site to remove the links, and they were gone.

And since I just said that, a nice response from shrapnel telling us who to contact in this case would be nice (it could also say something like "We can't do anything so don't bother" or "WE'LL BURN YOU ALIVE")