Standard special ability, totally pointless?

TomD · #1 November 14th, 2006, 06:27 AM

Surely it's as much about character as it is about usefullness? They're free units that should add extra feel and story to the game, not wipe out enemy nations single-handed. I really like having the Ulmish heroes (with some cheap items) leading charges of black knights. Okay, so they normally only lead one or two charges before they go to a heroic grave but that's the same for normal Ulmish commanders. It would hardly be in keeping for them to be magical super-heroes.

Sheap · #2 November 14th, 2006, 07:56 AM

A hero should be heroic, and many of them simply aren't. Ulm's heroes are hardly better than normal commanders. They don't necessarily have to be super-powered but they should give you something you normally don't have, or be a better version of your regular, commonly used units. That's why Etimmu is such a good hero, because powerful undead are good units to start with, but he's slightly better, plus you can get him earlier than you can summon anything comparable. Ulm's heroes are better than their normal commanders, but the problem is that their normal commanders are not particularly great.

Plus, mortal combat units don't tend to have particularly long lives, another drawback to the Ulms. Mages and immortals are much more valuable as heroes because they last longer. A mortal combat hero needs to be *really* good in order to be of value because otherwise all he will accomplish is dropping a bunch of expensive equipment in some field somewhere.

B0rsuk · #3 November 14th, 2006, 09:18 AM

Sheap:
You should be playing Heroes of Might and Magic 5. I'd rather play a strategy game.

Endoperez · #4 November 14th, 2006, 10:31 AM

Sporsnjarl has Standard. That's VERY important for successful stealth missions. Ulm heroes would be nice if any other nation got them, but as it is, all armies of Ulm are pretty much the same. The same counters work against all of them. Giving the Ulmish heroes and 100% lightning resistance would help, as would increased magic resistance (although as they happen to be mounted, they can use Lead Shield).

reverend · #5 November 14th, 2006, 11:13 AM

Quote:

B0rsuk said:
Sheap:
You should be playing Heroes of Might and Magic 5. I'd rather play a strategy game.

What has HoMM5 to do with anything? Besides being a decent game if you have an hour or two to kill.

My opinion on hero units:

They add flavour. Sure, they should be usefull, but honestly. Usually there are a whole lot of commanders in the field, with hundreds of units following them. I don't think a single unit you get through sheer blind luck (haven't had a hero in my two games with Ulm so far) should not be able to turn the tables in a war.

As for being different to normal troops: Why should they be? They are, after all, still part of the nation. They probably were normal soldiers, became leaders and excelled at what they were doing. So, they should be better, but not different.

Staying with Ulm as an example, a powerful mage hero would make absolutely no sense for this nation, especially MA or LA. Simply because he would have been persecuted for being a spellcaster. He would have no had no chance to gain popularity, and that is what makes a hero.

Sheap · #6 November 14th, 2006, 11:39 AM

There is not any hero in the game that can turn the tide in a war by himself, unless you get a very good hero VERY early (the chances of getting a hero are based on your scales, especially your luck scale).

There is a big zone between "what is the point" and "overpowering" and every hero should be in that zone. A hero won't really provide any flavor if you can't do anything with him besides shuttle troops around, maybe his text is interesting but you really need a gameplay effect to appreciate it.

There's more than one way to become a hero - one way is to do ordinary things very well, and another way is to do extraordinary things. There is room for both in the game. Taking the example of Ulm, I agree a powerful mage would not make sense, but a powerful priest might (given that Ulm has lousy priests normally, but doesn't really have a problem with religion other than lack of interest). Or a vampire in the middle era or a mage with the forge bonus in late era, heralding or recalling a different time. These are ways they could be different from the usual without really being out of place. A hero with a really strong siege or fortification bonus wouldn't really be different, but could certainly be better without just having tiny stat bonuses like most Ulmish heroes.

Nerfix · #7 November 14th, 2006, 12:02 PM

Don't 2/3 out of the Ulmish heroes ride Unicorns and get Recuperation? And good stats also. Seems good to me.

thejeff · #8 November 14th, 2006, 12:11 PM

They do. But they're still just slightly better heavy cavalry. If you try to use them as thugs, they die quickly. A little slower if you give them good equipment, but then that's a big investment on a fragile unit.

The recuperation doesn't help much, since they're just as likely to die outright as to get an affliction.

If you don't use them as thugs, there's no advantage over other commanders since they're just moving troops around.

A boosted Smith or Black Priest would be just as thematic, and much more useful

Graeme Dice · #9 November 14th, 2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

B0rsuk said:
You should be playing Heroes of Might and Magic 5. I'd rather play a strategy game.

I really wish there wasn't so much hatred directed towards those parts of the game that make Dominions unique and worth playing. The throwing of armies of mundane troops at each other is not that part of the game. Even the AI can manage to do that.

What makes the game worth playing is the ability to use magic and combinations of magical items to defeat your enemies. If people want a game where mundane troops are boosted by magic, but the actual magic isn't that powerful, there's the Age of Wonders series. I prefer Dominions with magic that actually matters and can win battles by itself.