Standard special ability, totally pointless?

[B0rsuk]

Sheap:
You should be playing Heroes of Might and Magic 5. I'd rather play a strategy game.

[Endoperez]

Sporsnjarl has Standard. That's VERY important for successful stealth missions. Ulm heroes would be nice if any other nation got them, but as it is, all armies of Ulm are pretty much the same. The same counters work against all of them. Giving the Ulmish heroes and 100% lightning resistance would help, as would increased magic resistance (although as they happen to be mounted, they can use Lead Shield).

[reverend]

B0rsuk said:
Sheap:
You should be playing Heroes of Might and Magic 5. I'd rather play a strategy game.

What has HoMM5 to do with anything? Besides being a decent game if you have an hour or two to kill.


My opinion on hero units:

They add flavour. Sure, they should be usefull, but honestly. Usually there are a whole lot of commanders in the field, with hundreds of units following them. I don't think a single unit you get through sheer blind luck (haven't had a hero in my two games with Ulm so far) should not be able to turn the tables in a war.

As for being different to normal troops: Why should they be? They are, after all, still part of the nation. They probably were normal soldiers, became leaders and excelled at what they were doing. So, they should be better, but not different.

Staying with Ulm as an example, a powerful mage hero would make absolutely no sense for this nation, especially MA or LA. Simply because he would have been persecuted for being a spellcaster. He would have no had no chance to gain popularity, and that is what makes a hero.

[Sheap]

There is not any hero in the game that can turn the tide in a war by himself, unless you get a very good hero VERY early (the chances of getting a hero are based on your scales, especially your luck scale).

There is a big zone between "what is the point" and "overpowering" and every hero should be in that zone. A hero won't really provide any flavor if you can't do anything with him besides shuttle troops around, maybe his text is interesting but you really need a gameplay effect to appreciate it.

There's more than one way to become a hero - one way is to do ordinary things very well, and another way is to do extraordinary things. There is room for both in the game. Taking the example of Ulm, I agree a powerful mage would not make sense, but a powerful priest might (given that Ulm has lousy priests normally, but doesn't really have a problem with religion other than lack of interest). Or a vampire in the middle era or a mage with the forge bonus in late era, heralding or recalling a different time. These are ways they could be different from the usual without really being out of place. A hero with a really strong siege or fortification bonus wouldn't really be different, but could certainly be better without just having tiny stat bonuses like most Ulmish heroes.

[Nerfix]

Don't 2/3 out of the Ulmish heroes ride Unicorns and get Recuperation? And good stats also. Seems good to me.

[thejeff]

They do. But they're still just slightly better heavy cavalry. If you try to use them as thugs, they die quickly. A little slower if you give them good equipment, but then that's a big investment on a fragile unit.

The recuperation doesn't help much, since they're just as likely to die outright as to get an affliction.

If you don't use them as thugs, there's no advantage over other commanders since they're just moving troops around.

A boosted Smith or Black Priest would be just as thematic, and much more useful

[FrankTrollman]

One of them even comes with leather armor, which means that unless you make her some blacksteel pate she isn't even heavy infantry. Ulm Heroes should be in character for Ulm. They should start their life with real Blacksteel equipment and real blacksteel weaponry (such as a Star of Heroes, not a "morningstar"). That would be in character. A hero that has really nice forged equipment.

As is, they are just on the upper end of normal human stats. They don't even win a one on one against recruitables from groups that are specifically superhuman such as Iron Woods or Man.

There are some heroes that really open new vistas - such as Angerboda or the Seer King. But the guys who are just a normal warrior with stat bonuses equivalent to a star or two - that's just lame.

Or to put it another way: Special Character Magicians get the equivalent of dozens of gems worth of empowerment, it is not unreasonable for special character warriors to come out of the box with a handful of gems worth of equipment.

-Frank

[thejeff]

The base of the problem is that the game doesn't really support really good "human" warrior types.

Essentially because even with buffs and the best equipment you need enough hit points to survive a few lucky hits.
Given that some of the heroic abilities can give serious hp boosts, why not a hero with 2 or 3 times normal hps?

[Endoperez]

FrankTrollman said:
One of them even comes with leather armor, which means that unless you make her some blacksteel pate she isn't even heavy infantry. Ulm Heroes should be in character for Ulm. They should start their life with real Blacksteel equipment and real blacksteel weaponry (such as a Star of Heroes, not a "morningstar"). That would be in character. A hero that has really nice forged equipment.

As is, they are just on the upper end of normal human stats. They don't even win a one on one against recruitables from groups that are specifically superhuman such as Iron Woods or Man.

There are some heroes that really open new vistas - such as Angerboda or the Seer King. But the guys who are just a normal warrior with stat bonuses equivalent to a star or two - that's just lame.

Or to put it another way: Special Character Magicians get the equivalent of dozens of gems worth of empowerment, it is not unreasonable for special character warriors to come out of the box with a handful of gems worth of equipment.

-Frank

Except, of course, that it's not possible to make heroes appear with actual items. And items (other than weapons) are almost impossible to emulate properly on a unit.

The Heroine with Leather Armor has lower encumberance than the other knights, and AP 30 (although that can be a liability as well). Black Plate armor doesn't cost that much, not for Ulm.


Barhulf:
HP 19, str 15, att 14, def 13, mag res 10, enc 5. Armor for 21/20 prot. Def change -1. Giving him a magical weapon boosts him a lot, because he starts with a Morningstar (-2 def).

Raterik:
HP 17, str 15, att 13, def 14, mag res 13, enc 5, same equipment.

Hildegard:
HP 14, str 12, att 15, def 15, enc 4, mag res 13, essentially no armor/helm and just spear/shield. Def change +6, to 21.


In comparison, Demon Knights have HP 20, str 15, att/def 13, mag res 15, enc 1. Prot 22/24, def change of +4 from equipment. Demon Knights have a Broad Sword, Lance, Hoof instead of (weapon), hoof. Demon Knights have other abilities too, but he's here just for the comparison of stats.


Spornsjarl the Wolf Lord is actually useless. He has only Stealth 0 and Standard 10. Because stealth is dependent on the stealth value of the leader and the size of the army (pg 67), his forces are just as easy to catch as every other Vaetti Lord's. If he had, say, Stealth 40, he could lead an army of 40 units and still have as small chance of being caught as a single Scout.

[Graeme Dice]

B0rsuk said:
You should be playing Heroes of Might and Magic 5. I'd rather play a strategy game.

I really wish there wasn't so much hatred directed towards those parts of the game that make Dominions unique and worth playing. The throwing of armies of mundane troops at each other is not that part of the game. Even the AI can manage to do that.

What makes the game worth playing is the ability to use magic and combinations of magical items to defeat your enemies. If people want a game where mundane troops are boosted by magic, but the actual magic isn't that powerful, there's the Age of Wonders series. I prefer Dominions with magic that actually matters and can win battles by itself.