What about interactive Tactical Combat ?

[Agrajag]

Hullu said:
Well, still that's something I wouldn't be bothered to do. But with a simulator I might be

Why not? You are at a disadvantage to someone who does bother

[Hullu]

Because I'm a kind of person who values comfort over work If something is easy/comfortable enough for the gain, I do it, if it's not I skip it.

If using such an advantage is mandatory to be competitive and it causes too much discomfort, I quit playing. I doubt we'll ever reach that situation, although a careful planner AND user of this feature (simulating incoming battles) would have an enormous potential advantage over people who don't do it.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think a battle simulator would be a great advantage, to certain players. And a bad thing for the game overall.

That said, did anyone notice that I posted a link to a battle simulator? I dont think Johan needs to bother making the editor simulator into something user friendly and adding it to the game tools menu.

[Graeme Dice]

Gandalf Parker said:
I think a battle simulator would be a great advantage, to certain players. And a bad thing for the game overall.

There is no possible way that a battle simulator could be construed as a bad thing unless you don't want the players of the game to have accurate information on the capabilities of various units. Accurate information is not a bad thing in a strategy game, no matter how much the anti-powergamer crowd wants it to be. Accurate information is the only thing that makes a strategy game worth playing, as without it your decisions are not meaningful and might as well be randomly assigned.

That said, did anyone notice that I posted a link to a battle simulator? I dont think Johan needs to bother making the editor simulator into something user friendly and adding it to the game tools menu.

No, you did not post a link to a battle simulator. You posted a link to a map that can be used with some difficulty to create potential battles directly in the dominions game. It's nothing like a properly featured simulator that could be used to run the few thousand test casts that are needed to properly balance the gold costs on the vast number of overcosted units in Dominions.

[Hullu]

There is no possible way that a battle simulator could be construed as a bad thing unless you don't want the players of the game to have accurate information on the capabilities of various units. Accurate information is not a bad thing in a strategy game, no matter how much the anti-powergamer crowd wants it to be. Accurate information is the only thing that makes a strategy game worth playing, as without it your decisions are not meaningful and might as well be randomly assigned.

Accurate information is good you say? This taken to the extreme -> The game tells you "You will win" or "You will lose", even before you submit your turn (if orders/army compositions don't change). That's accurate information, and it would utterly ruin the game.

An easy to use battle simulator would be one step towards that. Certainly not even close to all the steps, but one step nevertheless.

[Maltrease]

With the amount of option in Dominion is unlikely that a "Perfect" strategy will ever be found. Sure there are optimal strategies in specific situations. Finding these and being able to actually create the scenario to your advantage is what strategy gaming is all about.

I think Graemes post sums it up perfectly. I would simply add that there are already people that ENJOY building custom maps to run battle tests. So in essence that advantage already exist to the dedicated (obsessive) player... having an easy to use simulator will lower the bar on the how much effort it takes to learn the "tricks" and allow more players access and UNDERSTANDING of the mechanics.

[Hullu]

Finding these and being able to actually create the scenario to your advantage is what strategy gaming is all about.

To me what they're all about is seeing the advantage yourself, not bruteforcing it with a computer. In other words, outwitting your opponent instead of out-tooling him.

[PhilD]

Hullu said:
Accurate information is good you say? This taken to the extreme -> The game tells you "You will win" or "You will lose", even before you submit your turn (if orders/army compositions don't change). That's accurate information, and it would utterly ruin the game.

No way, because this is a simultaneous turn game. If you can see your opponents' orders, then you can potentially (theoretically) prepare an optimal strategy against them, and a very powerful simulator would help you with that.

But we're not proposing a cheating device, we're proposing a tool that would make it possible to ask, "hey, what would happen if I had an army of X, and gave it such and such orders, and pitted it in such and such conditions vs an army of Y". This is completely different, and would be used, to various degrees, by people, depending on how much they want to get a feel for how the units' stats turn into performance on the battlefield. Depending on how much they wanted to get better at the game, some people would spend a lot of time with the simulator, and others wouldn't - and it's absolutely not certain that those who spent the most time with it would end up winning more, because some have a better tactical or strategic mind than others.

But it would make the option available.

[Hullu]

"hey, what would happen if I had an army of X, and gave it such and such orders, and pitted it in such and such conditions vs an army of Y"

I'm not really against that. I'm just against the fact that some people (probably not too many) would use it excessively in multiplayer games.

I'm personally against all 'unfair advantages' in all games, very heavily against. As you might see since I consider this one.

I have zero problems doing that kind of analysis just for fun for yourself or perfecting your strategies. I however have a problem with it if you are pitting your army against what you know about my army, and win because of that. It's a problem of principle, nothing else.

[Gandalf Parker]

Graeme Dice said:

There is no possible way that a battle simulator could be construed as a bad thing unless you don't want the players of the game to have accurate information on the capabilities of various units. Accurate information is not a bad thing in a strategy game, no matter how much the anti-powergamer crowd wants it to be. Accurate information is the only thing that makes a strategy game worth playing, as without it your decisions are not meaningful and might as well be randomly assigned.

Exactly. That IS what I think. Dont forget that I play it solo and I love randoms. So as far as Im concerned less strategy in facvor of more randoms is not a threat. But as far as MP gaming, Ive seen games destroyed where every little thing could be so completely tested that a slight benefit amounted to defining the ultimate absolute winning strategy. There was no more reason to buy it, play it, discuss it. Or it turned into a continual give and take between player-testers and developers that it also wasnt worth really playing the game. As far as Im concerned that would suck and it would be stupid to give that ability to the players. Yes, keep them in the dark and make them PLAY the game to find their strategys.

Oops. Sorry for that. What I meant to say was in MY opinion there are some factors which might make.. nahh screw that. You wont play diplomat so why should I.

No, you did not post a link to a battle simulator. You posted a link to a map that can be used with some difficulty to create potential battles directly in the dominions game. It's nothing like a properly featured simulator that could be used to run the few thousand test casts that are needed to properly balance the gold costs on the vast number of overcosted units in Dominions.

Such a flat factual statement? Maybe you meant to say that in your opinion that was..
Scratch that also

No, I posted a link to a Battle Simulator. It works. It works better than Johans as far as Im concerned. You might like something fancier like some other games have but I see little benefit in having the devs work on one. Especially since the link I gave allows for well over 90% of whatever tests anyone wants to do and what little is left over Id doubt would show up in any other simulator.