The problem of low hit points on humans

[Endoperez]

Human mages would still be recruited over human commanders, independent commanders would still be the most often recruited type to lead units, and only human sacred/otherwise elite melee commanders would really benefit from this (they MIGHT have a minor use with the change)... except that the best of the best humans already have increased hitpoints. Paladin - 15 hp. Black Lord - 17 hp. Lord Warden of Man - 20 hp (although that's from a magical enchantment, LW of Chelms has "only" 14 hp.)
Some of that seems to be 2 bonus hp that heavy cavalry seem to have. Daimyos of Jomon only have 11 hp, but lesser Hatamotos have 12, so I quess Daimyos are meant to have 13. Hoplite Commander has 13 hp, Agema Commander has 15 hp, etc.

[B0rsuk]

I think the thread starter's frustration comes from three reasons:

- he insists on entering the SC game
- he insists on making SC's out of humans
- he insists on playing a nation that doesn't fit his playing style. I could suggest playing Ulm, it has more HPs by default. By the way, I think sending Pathos to front line is misusing him - he has a strong Standard ability for a reason. Send the minotaur hero into battle, he can't really do anything else. 20+ hp and 16 base protection seems what you're looking for.

Personally I'm fine with the way humans are in Dominions. Dominions is the first game I see in a long time that doesn't pretend humans are demigods. Players are used to games where it takes like 20 sword hits to kill a human. (Warcraft3 ....)
Please notice that commanders in Dominions are called commanders, and not heroes. This is because, well, they're not heroes. You have to work hard to become a hero. Dominions has a mechanic for this called Heroic Ability.

[Hullu]

Which reminds me of...

Would be nice if the heroic abilities made sense. It's annoying to get valor or quickness for a mage. When your SC-non-caster gets some semi-useless reinvigoration(not useless, but I'd prefer quickness or somesuch):/

In my last singleplayer game I actually waited to get a melee guy with quickness before I made anyone a prophet. Combined with imprisoned pretender I played my first 30 turns without propher or a pretender

[Forrest]

Hit points are not jack.

In my last game a 300+ Hp pretender jumped into a little slot between my blessed Wardens and my H inf all backed by longbows with aim. The fact it took 3 rounds to kill him is a tribute to the +95 hp for domain that he had.

This is a army game. Commanders die like flies no matter how many hit points. If he survives a few front line conflicts he'll be damaged or marked.

[Twan]

I think a difference should be made between normal humans and surhuman heroes. It's a shame to see most warrior type heroes useless except as normal leaders, they need more than 20hp to have an use as heroic warriors (I would even say 25-30 hp + recup or regen, as hp here represent their extra capacity to avoid any kind of dammage -defense doesn't work as "heroes points" as it's useless against missiles/spells, luck is an option but too random and easy to have with gear, 50% all resist is another-) . Anything that have high chances to be one-shoted by a fireball or a level 3 summon is not a med-fan heroic warrior. Anyway, normal, recruitable, humans are not supposed to be exceptionnal warriors, and I find normal to see them having less than 20 hp.

[thejeff]

Agreed. I don't have a problem with most of the non-mage human commanders being fragile. They're there to lead troops.

It's the human melee heroes that are a problem. They should be special and it seems worthless to just use them like indy commanders. Since Hall of Fame heroes can get hp increasing abilities, it doesn't seem out of line to boost some of the national heroes hp.

There are a few recruitable types (Paladins & Black Lords were mentioned) that don't seem to have any real purpose other than to be thugs, but they're really too fragile for that. Does anyone actually use them?

I'd also suggested, in another thread, an item that would add 10-15 hp. Enough to really help out the human thugs, but little enough to not be worth it on real SCs.

And Forrest, if that pretender had been kitted out as an SC he would have ignored the longbows and your Heavy Infantry. The blessed Wardens might have done some damage, depending. Hps are just a buffer to ward against lucky shots and to give time for life drain & regen to work.

[Shovah32]

E9N4 Paladins can make decent thugs, they also have high leadership, good movement and can bless your knights of the chalice.

[B0rsuk]

Twan said:
as hp here represent their extra capacity to avoid any kind of dammage -defense doesn't work as "heroes points" as it's useless against missiles/spells,

Wrong. Hp is here precisely to represent creatures who are more sturdy and can resist more damage dealt to them. I know there are some games out there that use this oversimplification (especially D&D) but here it's not the case. Titans aren't harder to hit with bows and crossbows, they're just more resistant. And you certainly can improve your toughness to a certain degree with exercises. Also, some people are just tougher than others.

Dominions is actually pretty realistic game. In real life, you can't count on dodging arrows on bullets. There's no contradiction here - even heroes have to obey basic rules of physics. Strenght of heroes often comes from skills. That's what I like about Dominions.

They can't be all heroes. Simple. You can never protect your thugs from everything. And it's clearly intentional judging by the way Illwinter changed buff spells in Dominions3. Many buff spells now add a disadvantage such as poison vulnerability.
Contrary to what some people (coming from shallow fantasy RPGs, no doubt) say, some armor and a shield is not wasted on a commander. If it was so simple, everyone would use commanders like Tien Chi's eunuch (essentially 9hp 0 prot, no equipment or something very similar). And people would kill themselves over a chance of playing Pangaea, because even small amount of harpies would be able to instantly kill all enemy commanders.
Really, there are still dangers, even if you command an army from rear row. Howl, Imps, harpies, arrows...

[Twan]

Yes, I've just said that Hp used the D&D way *in their case* are the best way to have med fan warrior type heroes (like you can find in legends or books) in the limits of the dominion system. The other approach for hp, using a low number for humans even exceptionnal + abilities like defense to avoid to be hit also came from RPGs (call of cthulhu, runequest etc...), but is far worse to simulate med fan warrior type heroes and make them useful in a strategy game, as dominions shows it. The main caracteristic of the cthulhu/runequest concept of hp is to be far more random, as it is "you dodge or die fast" instead of "the better you are the slower you die". Too much random to give a reason to risk gear on heroes used as warriors when there are summons with far more hp (or other stats have to be so better that this system would favor heroes far more than some use of the D&Dian hp concept).

[Ewierl]

Twan said:
(I would even say 25-30 hp + recup or regen, as hp here represent their extra capacity to avoid any kind of dammage

That is, I'm afraid, a fundamental misconception about how Dom3's system represents its world. If hp represented abstract damage avoidance ability, units wouldn't get afflictions based on damage dealt.

In Dominions, hp quite explicitly represent raw physical durability. Basically, meat and muscle! Even human "heroes" are still human, and will still die if they take an unlucky sword to the face. That realistic lethality is a core conception of how Dominions' mechanic works. If you find that particularly annoying, I'd recommend playing any of the numerous nonhuman races with higher-hp commanders. (Although you can replicate the general idea quite well with Summon Firbolg.)

Dominions isn't the kind of fantasy setting where the badass human singlehandedly slays the dragon. It's the kind of setting where an army of humans with greatswords and mage support kills the dragon.

As an aside, though, I do agree that it'd be nice to have HoF bonuses try to be appropriate to the commander type. Mages with boosted attack skill are pretty sad heroes!