Two armies attacking the same province

[curtadams]

Graeme Dice said:
Please don't change this. I never want to fight a battle outside a castle. You will almost always be better off breaking siege the next turn.

I don't see how you come up with that. If you allow the enemy to seize the province before breaking the siege the next turn you:

lose 2 turns of troop recruitment (one turn will be wiped by the invader, one turn you won't control the provicne)
lose 1 turn of commander recruitment
lose 1 turn of province income
Allow your opponent 1 turn of province income (2 if he cranks the tax)
lose all your PD
lose one turn of army activity
lose the backing of your PD during the battle
risk tax or pillage damage to your province
lose travel through the province - and castles tend to be in important locations
lose the ability to reinforce your sieged army, while he can bring up reinforcements and have them join in the siege.

The only benefit is one more turn of summoning/forging. The only time you'd be better off breaking is if you're facing an army so strong that all your nearby armies, backed by your PD, will lose to his army, but you *can* beat him next turn with what you magic up in that castle the next turn. That's a pretty unusual situation. Unless you're holding back gems (generally a bad idea) I don't see how that's going to happen.

[Graeme Dice]

curtadams said:
lose 2 turns of troop recruitment (one turn will be wiped by the invad
lose 1 turn of commander recruitment
lose 1 turn of province income
Allow your opponent 1 turn of province income (2 if he cranks the tax)

And gain the enormous benefit of tying your opponents army down for at least a turn so that you can destroy it instead of having to chase his army around and never be able to catch it. After all, because of the movement rules, it's impossible to catch an army that constantly moves to new provinces every turn unless you can bring in a second force that's sufficient to destroy it.

lose all your PD

I don't really mind losing the one gold that I spent to get a scouting commander. After all, now I don't have to worry about the province defense being killed and causing my pretender to autorout. The Dom3 morale system is still just as broken in this regard as the Dom2 system.

risk tax or pillage damage to your province

Tax damage to population is inconsequential for a single turn of 200% taxes. Pillage is only a problem if your opponent doesn't want to actually win the game, and would rather throw away his future income to try and kill you now.

lose travel through the province - and castles tend to be in important locations

His army is right there waiting to be attacked. You don't want to travel through that province, and most popular maps don't let you move more than one province anyways thanks to terrain happy mapmakers.

lose the ability to reinforce your sieged army, while he can bring up reinforcements and have them join in the siege.

Armies that move into a province and armies that break siege from inside of the castle attack in the same combat.

The only benefit is one more turn of summoning/forging.

That and the ability to make your opponent sit still for a turn so that you can get around the silly movement rules in dominions that keep armies from ever contacting each other unless they both attempt to move into the same province.

The only time you'd be better off breaking is if you're facing an army so strong that all your nearby armies, backed by your PD, will lose to his army, but you *can* beat him next turn with what you magic up in that castle the next turn. That's a pretty unusual situation. Unless you're holding back gems (generally a bad idea) I don't see how that's going to happen.

Why don't you tell me how you plan to force your opponent to attack the castle in the same turn that you've moved your forces there? It's also not at all uncommon to be able to summon sufficient troops in one turn at an important castle. Especially when holding back gems to wait for the strongest summons possible is the default strategy. If you've wasted your earth gems on cave drakes, I'll be quite happy to destroy them with clockwork horrors.

[curtadams]

Graeme Dice said:
And gain the enormous benefit of tying your opponents army down for at least a turn so that you can destroy it instead of having to chase his army around and never be able to catch it. After all, because of the movement rules, it's impossible to catch an army that constantly moves to new provinces every turn unless you can bring in a second force that's sufficient to destroy it.

He's not tied down at all. You can leave a sieged province just as well as an ordinary one. The AI won't leave but the attacks are very predictable.

I don't really mind losing the one gold that I spent to get a scouting commander. After all, now I don't have to worry about the province defense being killed and causing my pretender to autorout. The Dom3 morale system is still just as broken in this regard as the Dom2 system.

You're really missing something if you're not using PD. For one thing, you have to be constantly running around to squish all those dang invading independents. For another, you're losing a great military tool. PD is quite respectable militarily until rather late in the game. Solo combatants are generally rather fragile; you can always back them up with a bank of archers if you're having autorout problems. In any case, even if your SC routs defending the province, he just ends up next door and you can break the siege anyway. You haven't lost anything from trying to defend.

Tax damage to population is inconsequential for a single turn of 200% taxes. Pillage is only a problem if your opponent doesn't want to actually win the game, and would rather throw away his future income to try and kill you now.

If he's not going to squish you promptly it's not "his" income. It's good strategy to injure an opponent. Much better to control a damaged province than to have somebody else control an undamaged one!

His army is right there waiting to be attacked. You don't want to travel through that province, and most popular maps don't let you move more than one province anyways thanks to terrain happy mapmakers.

You do want to travel through if you want to defend or reinforce other provinces. I normally play random maps, and I really wouldn't want to play on a map that was all forest/swamp anyway.

Armies that move into a province and armies that break siege from inside of the castle attack in the same combat.

I know I saw double attacks in Dom2. Did they change that?

That and the ability to make your opponent sit still for a turn so that you can get around the silly movement rules in dominions that keep armies from ever contacting each other unless they both attempt to move into the same province.

But he's not tied down. Incidentally, you can interfere with somebody when he's moving into your terrritory. Only if he retreats can he guarantee moving first. And if he retreats, you're winning.

Why don't you tell me how you plan to force your opponent to attack the castle in the same turn that you've moved your forces there? It's also not at all uncommon to be able to summon sufficient troops in one turn at an important castle. Especially when holding back gems to wait for the strongest summons possible is the default strategy. If you've wasted your earth gems on cave drakes, I'll be quite happy to destroy them with clockwork horrors.

You don't summon much early stuff, but once you get to level 5 or 6 you burn through gems as fast as you can. I don't agree with super summons being common. With the gold upped, even when you get to clockwork horrors and the like you just don't make enough to win. A squad of clockwork horrors is very nice but it won't even come close to wiping out an army. Besides that, most of the time your summoning squad will be in a different castle anyway.

[Graeme Dice]

curtadams said:
He's not tied down at all. You can leave a sieged province just as well as an ordinary one.

If he leaves, then his attack accomplished absolutely nothing but to raise unrest by about 30. You'll automatically take the province back next turn.

You're really missing something if you're not using PD.

Yes, I'm missing out on having my supercombatants autorout.

For one thing, you have to be constantly running around to squish all those dang invading independents.

Or I could just not take misfortune.

Solo combatants are generally rather fragile; you can always back them up with a bank of archers if you're having autorout problems.

Putting archers in the battle means that the routing will happen after 12 turns once they start to run forwards into melee.

In any case, even if your SC routs defending the province, he just ends up next door and you can break the siege anyway.

Not in general, since any competent player will also try and attack any province your forces might retreat to. Take a medusa as an example. She can kill 500 conventional troops per battle without taking a single hit with very cheap equipment. Put her with a small force and she'll rout as soon as the troops die.

I know I saw double attacks in Dom2. Did they change that?

Double attacks are caused by magical movement. Triple attacks are caused by the combination of magical attacks, a siege break, and then a storming of the fortress.

But he's not tied down. Incidentally, you can interfere with somebody when he's moving into your terrritory. Only if he retreats can he guarantee moving first. And if he retreats, you're winning.

Have you ever tried chasing an army around a closed loop? They are not moving into the same province, so there is no combat between the two armies.

Besides that, most of the time your summoning squad will be in a different castle anyway.

Why? Every province with a castle is going to be recruiting a mage every turn, so the only difference between castles is how long ago they were built and whether it's your capital for some nations.

[ceremony]

Graeme Dice said:
Take a medusa as an example. She can kill 500 conventional troops per battle without taking a single hit with very cheap equipment. Put her with a small force and she'll rout as soon as the troops die.

Is this happening in Dom3? Because this should have been changed - see manual p. 73. Commanders are no longer supposed to rout when all of their troops have been killed. Are things still happening the old way?

[Endoperez]

It's page 80, and there's a mention of:

Army rout Once an army hsa taken 75% casualties in a battle, it will automatically rout.


I haven't noticed it being anywhere near the severity of DomII routing problems. In fact, I don't think I've ever actually noticed this taking effect.

[Cainehill]

[quote]
Graeme Dice said:

curtadams said:

Or I could just not take misfortune.

Eh, since when has not taking misfortune helped that much? I mean - I take Luck-3 _every_ game. And in every one of five MP games, I've had to re-take provinces from random events. In one, by turn 15 I'd lost provinces _four_ times, meaning that I essentially lost any chance at being a contender.

Luck _still_ doesn't do nearly enough.

[ceremony]

Endoperez said:
It's page 80, and there's a mention of:

Army rout Once an army hsa taken 75% casualties in a battle, it will automatically rout.

That is correct - I was just wondering if armies were routing due to commanders losing all their units.

Thanks for the clarification.

[UninspiredName]

Luck does plenty for me. If I don't take any luck/misfortuse, even aided by order 3, I get a crapload of brigands, fires, and earthquakes. Also random monster attacks, of course. I get a ton of good events with luck 3, (though some of them are flaggelants and militia) though it's mostly 120 points of protection money.

[Esben Mose Hansen]

Cainehill said:
Eh, since when has not taking misfortune helped that much? I mean - I take Luck-3 _every_ game. And in every one of five MP games, I've had to re-take provinces from random events. In one, by turn 15 I'd lost provinces _four_ times, meaning that I essentially lost any chance at being a contender.

Luck _still_ doesn't do nearly enough.

Wild guess... those provinces were under a misfortune dominion? Remember, having a good dominion is little use if you don't push it

I have no idea if this is an effective strategy, but for the who-needs-a-pretender-anyway-strategy (where I usually choose a fountain, imprisoned) and go for max dominion, disorder3,magic3,prod3,grow3,heat0... I very rarely see any misfornate events, except along the border until my pretender breaks free. Lots of gold=>lots of temples=>more dominion push. And more priests to push it quicker too.