Worthy Heroes Mod(Version 1.7b! Hydra bug fixed)

[Jurri]

Here are some more observations on the heroes:

Agartha
---
EA: The multihero Olm seems to get more magics than the unique one. Is this intentional?

MA: I'd imagine a gargoyle or a crusher or a sentinel or some other construct would be a thematic and interesting hero. Also, how about a mage hero who had astral and earth, just to allow these fellas access to all kinds of constructs? Ogon would be in line with many other nations recycling their EA heroes, and he's supposedly extremely long-lived so it's not impossible to have him here as well.


Vanheim
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I don't think Sölvis should be available in Middle and Late age... there's no war to wage with Helheim, after all.

There's no reason why the Svartalf heroes of Helheim wouldn't have a forge bonus like the Dwarf heroes of Vanheim.


Jotunheim
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Tjatse should perhaps have a line in his description that explains what a Niefel Jarl is; then he wouldn't be so out of place in Middle or Late Age.


Yomi
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Tsunekage could use a boost. Perhaps raise his stats to the level of Masatora and add recuperation.

There's something funky going on here: the Kabuto helmet seems only give 8 head protection despite the description's 16 on some of the samurai heroes. (Hashi Saburo, Ryutaro) Yukinaga, Masatora and Tsunekage seem to have the correct amount of head protection, though, which makes this pretty weird... In fact, lots of the other heroes also suffer from the halved head protection even with other headgear.

The Member of the Shadow League seems to use an inappropriate namelist.


Atlantis
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How's about a Monster Fish hero for EA and MA? Would be fun! Or better yet, an Asp Turtle for EA and MA; then a Leviathan in LA.

EA: Commander of the Living Pillars have 150 resistances, which isn't quite in line.

LA: the Kivigtok: references to Sialuk, despite seemingly random name.


R'lyeh
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EA: The Elder Polyphal Mother doesn't really give the nation anything. They have recruitable mages of this caliber, and being immobile this one would need something really good to make it worth it, especially since it can't even cast teleport without an item.

MA: Given Auluudh's description, a multihero Aboleth would be a possibility. (Maybe go with the smaller Aboleth from EA instead of the Mind Lord, to not go overboard.) The Visitor could also make for a multihero. As would a Void Spectre, a herald of what's to come.

LA: Is Auluudh really appropriate here?


Oceania
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How about an amphibious Triton King hero? He'd be called a Merking, I suppose, if he was the king of the Mermen. This would need new graphics, though, seeing how mermen have fish tails in the water.


Marignon
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The Witch Hunter General has holy 4, which is what I think he had in Dom2 also... Be it as it may, holy 3 would be probably more appropriate, since the Cardinal is supposedly the most powerful priest of Marignon.

[HoneyBadger]

I was just thinking of ideas for some Niefel heroes for early age:

Thrudgelmir (spelled with an accent ' above the u), which means "strength-yeller" is one of the first generation of Niefel giants. Unlike most Jotun, he was born with 6 heads and is considered by some to have been the forefather of the trollish race. Because of these attributes, I would suggest he have 3 head slots (because 6 is a little extreme), 5% regeneration, an unusually long lifespan for a Niefel but still older, and possibly added strength/fear +0 or the roar experience ability, but I don't think that can be modded at this time. He might also be unusually small for a Niefel giant (size 4).

Also, for multihero, Tjatse wasn't the only giant who could shapeshift, some giants could change into giant eagles, while others could change into giant otters, which would make them amphibious.

[Turin]

New Version is uploaded in the first post of the thread. I have attached Version 1.5 here, if you need it for some reason.

[Taqwus]

Funkalicious.

Say, has anybody gotten more than one hero with Lanka in stock 3.04? I haven't yet gone as far as searching the unit array or the string table to find them all, but I had a fairly long SP game with a luck scale and only saw Devasura, so this may be one nation needing more.

[Jack_Trowell]

I all from a mod for better heroes, and tried your mod (when it was version 1.4, tried with luck3 arco), and there's some things that annoy me :
(note that I only tried with one nation, maybe other nations , or more recent version, are different)

- Seems like you gave 3 misc slots for *all* heroes ? While I'm for giving more punch to some heroes (mainly figter types), 3 misc slots is something not even humanoid pretenders get, making it, from my point of view, unthematic and out of place.
(Of course non humanoid heeroes can have a special distribution of items slots, but here I'm talking about standard heroes like Daidalos, or the Hierophant, or Pathos)

- Seems like you gave major boost to most heroes, even thoses that were already better mages that their national equivalent.

For exemple (I tried Arco, remenber), the Hierophant is already a useful good mage whith one in each element path as well as being a priest (1 or 2), and having S2 or S3 if I remind correctly

Your version (1.4) has nature magic as well, wich he should not have according to its backstory (he was supposed to have tried to learn all (arco) magic and failed only for healing (ie : nature) magic, never able to restore is 'manhood')
And if i remind correctly, you also gave him a forge bonus (why thematically ? Do you want to give a forge bonus to all mage heroes ?), and maybe an increase in existing path (this, I'm not sure).

Added with the 3 misc slots, I fell more like I'm cheating that using a mod.

For fighter heroes (the monster in the maze, and Pathos the son of titants), exept for the 3 misc slots they seemed fine.

Maybe arco heroes are not a good exemple of the general changes that you made and I should try with other nations (and more recent version) ?

[Turin]

Thanks for the feedback Jack.

Regarding Orokestes: I added the nature magic in 1.4 as a means to combat his old age problem(#older mod commands weren´t working back then), but it is pretty unthematic and I will remove it in the next version.

I gave him the forgebonus, so that he actually plays an improtant role in the game.
Without it he is just another mystic, who got all his randoms in pretty useless lvl 1 paths and an additional air. That doesn´t really add much to the nation.
With the forge bonus, you might actually think about empowering him to craft better artifact and he becomes an interesting unit.
The thematic reason is that he simply learned much of magic and picked up some tricks in item forging on the way.

Basegame almost all hero mages from dom2 are national mages with just one extra random and sometimes national mages are even better than them.
The dom3 heroes added by Ilwinter change this and are powerhouses magicwise(examples: Tjatse, Kirke, Malphas, Zilammu), so I feel that the old dom2 mage heroes should be
significantly better/different to their dom2 counterparts as well.

Regarding the misc slots: They are mostly a benefit to the fighter heroes, so you can equip them better, which brings them closer to the firbolg/banelord level I am aiming for. It´s usually not necessary/costeffective to trick out mage heroes, so the slots could be dropped for them.
I feel that the two misc slot limitation is pretty arbitrary, since those are trinkets like rings/amulets, feathers etc.
You should be able to carry more than two of those and it serves as an identifier for which units are heroes and which aren´t.

[Wauthan]

Thanks for the update Turin. Glad you keep up the good effort.

When I run your mod together with my own silly heores mod I now average one new hero every seven turns. Guess heroes crawl out of the woodwork when gods walk the lands.

I've altered your heroes a bit though, to mesh better with my parade of disgruntled menhirs, teleporting militiamen and other freaks of fantasy.

[Jack_Trowell]

Turin said:
Thanks for the feedback Jack.

Regarding Orokestes: I added the nature magic in 1.4 as a means to combat his old age problem(#older mod commands weren´t working back then), but it is pretty unthematic and I will remove it in the next version.

Ok

I gave him the forgebonus, so that he actually plays an improtant role in the game.

He was already strictly superior to a standard mystic, and is a priest. Seemed like already good for me (however it's true that if he come with old age, he lose much then)

Without it he is just another mystic, who got all his randoms in pretty useless lvl 1 paths and an additional air.

Doesn't he came with +S3 too ?

And having already *all* randoms *and* one more path *and* priest levels should be enought I think.

That doesn´t really add much to the nation.
With the forge bonus, you might actually think about empowering him to craft better artifact and he becomes an interesting unit.

With all elements, he is already useful :

- he's a really good recipient for a ring of wizardry
- with some empowerment and/or path boosting items, he can forge an elemental staff, and gain another level in *all* elemental paths

I already made him a mini-rainbow mage, useful for site-searching (akashic record is good, but 25 astral gems could be better used later in game), and yes, forging magic items.

Note also that with only one empowerment to air, you can cast auspex, opening a potential source of air magic that is not natural for arco.

The thematic reason is that he simply learned much of magic and picked up some tricks in item forging on the way.

A mage with a total of 8/9 rank in all magic combined (including holy) seems already to me someone with a lots of magic.

But i can live with it if it's something that specific to him and maybe a few other heroes, and not a discount on forge bonus for all mage heroes.

Basegame almost all hero mages from dom2 are national mages with just one extra random and sometimes national mages are even better than them.

I agree fully that a hero should at least be a perfect version of its base model (like a mage that would have all path of its nation) or have at least a small boost (highter path, or access to a path of magic not usually available for its nation)

The dom3 heroes added by Ilwinter change this and are powerhouses magicwise(examples: Tjatse, Kirke, Malphas, Zilammu), so I feel that the old dom2 mage heroes should be
significantly better/different to their dom2 counterparts as well.

I will have to compare. Maybe my first impression of your mod has been partially incorrect because for me the hierophant is already a useful hero (but not overpowered, and there's the misc slots part).

I will look to what you've done to others heroes and try to give more feedback

Regarding the misc slots: They are mostly a benefit to the fighter heroes, so you can equip them better, which brings them closer to the firbolg/banelord level I am aiming for. It´s usually not necessary/costeffective to trick out mage heroes, so the slots could be dropped for them.
I feel that the two misc slot limitation is pretty arbitrary, since those are trinkets like rings/amulets, feathers etc.
You should be able to carry more than two of those and it serves as an identifier for which units are heroes and which aren´t.

Yes 2 misc slots for humanoids is arbitrary, I agree, but it's part of the whole vanilla game.

For a hero mod, I look more to something like Zne conceptual balance for dom2 : changing thinks but trying to keep the vanilla flavor.

If humanoid heroes start having 3 misc slots, then why not pretenders or some commanders or summons ?

I'd like for the fighter heroes to be more useful, but I think there's better way to do it

Some suggestions :

- some bonus additionnal attack (i think the mod flag is #bonus no ?). Could be a special martial arts attack (such as the secondary attack of the kappas, or even a kick attack), a paralyse/stun attack (may be a net, a pstunning fist, etc ...), or something else, depending on the hero concept

- Maybe more magic items as initial equipment (I know that you don't get all bonuses from magic items added like that)

- better combat values (attack, defence, HP, etc ...) and or special abilities (berserk is always easy to give or increase to most fighters, stealth , and maybe spying/increase unrest, assassin).

- maybe a rank of two of magic for some heroes (to cast some basic combat buffs on themeslves)

- for great leaders, a "summon allies" would be thematic :
if the hero was able to summon one unit per turn (think elite sacred unit usually), it wouldn't be overpowered, but it would be something that would make the hero really usefull (one more sacred unit per turn, and it would allow you to recruit ponctually some sacred capitol-only unit far from the capitol during a campain)

when a hero is supposed to be the leader of an elite force, this would be ther perfect ability.

A variant would be a charimatic hero that would draw to him low level units (the summon ability would summon several units, but they wouldn't be sacred or powerful ones)

Exemples :

- the antlered shaman hero from EA Ulm, supposed to have trained more steel warriors that any other shamans, could be able to summon one /turn (note that if you do that, you can't use him to research or forge items)

- A general hero (maybe multiple) could recruit basic units (lots of cannon fodder like militia, or some (2~3) medium or heavy infantry) from its nation

Of course this should not be used for all warriors type heroes, but there are several that could use this ability.

[HoneyBadger]

Since Jurri mentioned the Polypal Mother, and her lack of individual usefulness, possibly consider that she spawn a third type of Aboleth-aside from standard and gibodai. A couple of extra hero-mothers could similarly spawn the third kind, which could perhaps open up another strategy for Aboleth-kind. Maybe the ones that the Mother spawns are sacred-opening up bless-strategy for Aboleths. Maybe a hero type spawns amphibious spawn while another hero type spawns that have a small amount of poison damage (like 1 point of weak poison) and then explode like a much-reduced-in-power-Medallion-of-Vengeance-except-poison-instead-of-fire effect (say area effect weakest poison). I could see lots of hero-mother possibilities here that could really open Aboleth up, and since they're each the result of a unique hero, they can be more fun without having to totally take a bow to balancing.

Also, I'm sorry to see Sedna didn't make the cut, was she just too powerful?

[Turin]

@Jack
regarding orokestes: he´s actually a pretty bad example for the way I modded mages, because he is a relict from dom2. In dom2 mystics had astral 2 and 3 in elemental paths, with one elemental path combined and a maximum of 3 in a single path.
Now they are badly nerfed with an average of only 3,5 magic paths and a maximum of 2.
So right now the unmodded orokestes wouldn´t need any more buffs to be vastly superior to a mystic, but even modded he isn´t a particularly powerful mage, so I´d rather leave him in his modded state.
Compared to tjatse an a3w3d3h2 niefel jarl that can shapechange into an eagle with a4, or kirke with w2s2n4d4, heal troops and glamour, he really is a weakling.

Regarding the misc slots: I still feel that they fit on heroes, after all heroes are usually the ones that deck themselves out with magic items in traditional rpgs and it gives you more freedom to design your hero, so I think the change generally adds to the enjoyment.
I should remove it on a couple of the new multiheroes though, where versions exist with the standard amount of slots.
Sadly a summon allies ability is currently not moddable, it would make for tons of interesting heroes.

@ygorl
Good point regarding the rider. I will probably make him into an assassin with mapmove 4 and all possible survivals. Flying seems to be a bit much of a stretch.
Caelian hero is another good point.

@Honeybadger
As i said above summon allies sadly isn´t possible at the moment. Sedna didn´t make the cut, because it´s not possible to mod names at the moment and I want unique heroes to generally have a unique name, unless they are themselves fairly generic like the commander of the living pillars.