Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I'm not sure this thread is profitable any more. People are letting their emotions get the better of them, I'm afraid. Two points of view, both valid. Neither are going to agree. Big deal, so what, jeeze. Live with it.

As for you, Gandalf Parker, you're going in my killfile. You are over the top. Too angry by far. This is just a game. Your extremist solutions are shocking. Yes, shocking.

[curtadams]

In terms of arguments that the Heims are not overpowered -
So far we have two tracks attempted, neither very successfully.

Some have posted strategies for particular nations to beat the Heims. I've seen Abysia, Niefelheim, C'tis Miasma, Arcosephale (with a very complex idea), and elephant users. That's not enough nations and not enough testing although most are plausible. There would also need to be some counters tested - e.g. elephants are very vulnerable to archers so an archer/Van combo might allow the Heims to deal with that (their defense alone might be enough - failed tramples don't kill very effectively and those easily routed elephants are very painful to the owner)

There was also a claim that hobbit chaff can thrash the Heims. That's a legitimate idea, although you can't always find hobbits, and that also needs some testing. I'm also majorly unimpressed with hobbit meleers - there's an issue with wasted costs.

In terms of patching I have a general principle and two ideas.

First, I think an "emergency patch" should be conservative. Overnerfing is hard to reverse. The specific ideas:

1) weaken glamour so that if the *mirror image* takes a hit it goes poof. Obviously a programming change but it would get rid of the disturbing synergy between mirror images and hard-to-hurt units while still leaving it useful. Thick missle fire would pretty much fry mirrors but the mirrors would still waste a fair number of shots. In addition to balance benefits, this is "logical" to most people.

2) Raise the costs of the sacred units in view of their double-bless benefit. They would no longer have much use otherwise but that's OK - the Heims still have very strong other units. IMO Vanheim in particular seems to have really strong units in general based on how much damage they do me but it doesn't seem a runaway problem.

I'm not sure about the best approach but frankly, def 24 armored units are just too good for the early game. They are excellent in comparison even to fairly high-level summoned troops like lamia, naiads, and devils. If "summoned double-blessed van troops" were a fairly high-level spell it would still be a major target of research, probably ahead of lamias, and that's saying something.

[FrankTrollman]

In terms of arguments that the Heims are not overpowered -
So far we have two tracks attempted, neither very successfully.

In what way is it not successful. The initial claim is that a double blessed heim strategy cannot be beaten. I've beaten it, therefore that's an iron-clad argument to the contrary.

The burden of proof is on the people claiming imbalance - not the other way around. The people who are claiming that Vanheim is overpowered are saying that they lost badly and don't see what they could have done differently. That's anecdotal evidence at best. One could conclude from that anecdote that either:

1. Vanheim is overpowered.
2. The faction they were playing is underpowered.
3. The player of vanheim in the example was really good.
4. The player complaining about Vanheim isn't good.
5. Vanheim plays differently than other nations and that repeating standard tactics with or against them is ineffective.

Those are all valid conclusions. But a lot of people are saying "Vanheim is unstoppable!" as if that conclusion was foregone. Well, I've never lost to Vanheim in any era with any nation in multiplayer or single player. So I theorize that one of the other options may be what you're actually looking at.

A strategy that loses badly to Arcocephalian Chariot Archers is hardly "unbeatable" - simply "weird and extreme". Ashen Fields isn't overpowered because people have to fight it with a heavy force of archers and priests - that's just how it works.

The Vanir are virtually immune to sword attacks. That's a big deal. But it's not an insurmountable deal.Every nation can mount an offensive that is not based on melee attacks that have a chance of missing. Area attacks, trampling, battlefield enchantments and more are all within the realm of possibility. The specific tactics to be employed will of course vary nation to nation, but you can put up a defense against the Vanir.

And if you aren't tailoring your troop setups to your opposition, you should lose. Really, the fact that it requires specific planning on your part to win is not a flaw in the game.

-Frank

[Twan]

weaken glamour so that if the *mirror image* takes a hit it goes poof.

Replacing glamour by twist fate + normal stealth is probably doable in a mod and would be a good fix IMO.

[Edi]

FrankTrollman said:
In what way is it not successful. The initial claim is that a double blessed heim strategy cannot be beaten. I've beaten it, therefore that's an iron-clad argument to the contrary.

That there seems to be nothing but a strawman of the actual argument put forth, namely that the Van units are overpowered. I didn't see anyone claiming they were unbeatable, but that they are overpowered. That's with the assumption of current costs and abilities.

FrankTrollman said:
The burden of proof is on the people claiming imbalance - not the other way around.

Yes. More on that shortly.

FrankTrollman said:
The people who are claiming that Vanheim is overpowered are saying that they lost badly and don't see what they could have done differently. That's anecdotal evidence at best. One could conclude from that anecdote that either:

1. Vanheim is overpowered.
2. The faction they were playing is underpowered.
3. The player of vanheim in the example was really good.
4. The player complaining about Vanheim isn't good.
5. Vanheim plays differently than other nations and that repeating standard tactics with or against them is ineffective.

By the same token, your ability to beat Vanheim is just as anecdotal and cannot be used as evidence for any kind of larger trend. However, when there is direct testimony from a lot of people who are experienced players that the Van and Helheim units are a problem for the reasons listed because they skew games in several ways without the player using them really sacrificing anything, I'm far more likely to take that aggregate testimony as valid than someone like yourself coming out of the woodwork and just dismissing it with a handwave. I know Graeme Dice, Cainehill, Huzurdadi and some of the others here well enough to know that they can beat Vanheim or Helheim in MP, so I don't see where this accusation of incompetence that you're bandying about with that list of yours is coming from.

You're also ignoring what happened when the new people started running set-piece tests to get their own numbers. Not all of them changed their minds or did so immediately, but there was a marked drop-off of the dismissive replies at that point and even some reversals of opinion.

FrankTrollman said:
Those are all valid conclusions. But a lot of people are saying "Vanheim is unstoppable!" as if that conclusion was foregone. Well, I've never lost to Vanheim in any era with any nation in multiplayer or single player. So I theorize that one of the other options may be what you're actually looking at.

So, it's back to more anecdotal evidence (yours, this time) coupled with a strawman argument (since I at least haven't seen anyone saying Vanheim to be unstoppable, just more powerful than it should be).

FrankTrollman said:
The Vanir are virtually immune to sword attacks. That's a big deal.

Yes, and what you neglect to mention is that the same mechanism that makes them nearly immune to sword attacks also makes them nearly immune to all other forms of physical attack as well and leaves massed mages and powerful battle magic (which takes a long time to get in the kind of numbers we're talking about) as about the only brute force counter. Everything else requires either a ridiculous ratio of units from a cost comparison analysis and/or intricate strategies that are easy to counter and will only work if the Van player does what you want him to do instead.

FrankTrollman said:
But it's not an insurmountable deal.Every nation can mount an offensive that is not based on melee attacks that have a chance of missing. Area attacks, trampling, battlefield enchantments and more are all within the realm of possibility. The specific tactics to be employed will of course vary nation to nation, but you can put up a defense against the Vanir.

No, not insurmountable, but did you actually bother reading the posts in the thread where these issues were discussed in more detail?

FrankTrollman said:
And if you aren't tailoring your troop setups to your opposition, you should lose. Really, the fact that it requires specific planning on your part to win is not a flaw in the game.

-Frank

Yes, generally speaking that is true. But when the situation is such that you generally have to do everything right with complex strategies while your opponent has far more room to make mistakes and all other things being equal, then it bears at least investigating, not an outright dismissal.

Edi

[curtadams]

FrankTrollman said:
The Vanir are virtually immune to sword attacks. That's a big deal. But it's not an insurmountable deal.Every nation can mount an offensive that is not based on melee attacks that have a chance of missing. Area attacks, trampling, battlefield enchantments and more are all within the realm of possibility. The specific tactics to be employed will of course vary nation to nation, but you can put up a defense against the Vanir.

And if you aren't tailoring your troop setups to your opposition, you should lose. Really, the fact that it requires specific planning on your part to win is not a flaw in the game.

Vans are effectively immune to melee and quite resistant to missle fire because of glamour+armor+shield+speed. That's both the basic attacks of Dominions. Other stuff is generally not available until level 4/5 research, which is well along, and the magic requires a good supply of potent casters, which is also hard to come by. Trampling is pretty iffy and shouldn't work generally - one guy did test chariot archers and they were a flop. Each van needs to get trampled 12 times and that's quite a lot of successful tramples. In any case, the majority of nations have no AOEish attack at all for some time, and that's a huge problem.

Tailoring should NOT be necessary. Trivially, if two untailored forces encounter each other, one will win! If a particular nation always requires tailoring to be stopped, it's too strong, and if tailoring isn't even available to most nations, it simply has to be fixed.

[mivayan]

I noticed the theory that trampling is a handy rock-scissors-paper style counter to F9W9 helhirdings. So I made a test.

Side one: F9W9 bless.
One holy3 priest, to cast divine blessing and smite. I wont count his cost. 40 helhirdings: 3000 gold, 480 resources.

Side two: F9W9 bless which doesn't matter
One holy3 priest, casting smite for symmetry's sake. I wont count his cost. 100 EA ctis lizard chariots: 5000 gold, 2600 resources.

No commanders were harmed in this test.
Fight one: chariots defend, 29 out of 40 helhirdings die, 95 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
Fight two: chariots defend, 16 out of 40 helhirdings die, 98 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
Fight three: chariots defend, 14 out of 40 helhirdings die, 88 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
Fight four: chariots defend, 5 out of 40 helhirdings die, 75 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
Fight five: chariots defend, 39 out of 40 helhirdings die, 54 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
In this last fight, 2925 gold were lost for helhirdings. 2700 gold lost for chariots.

So, for only 167% of the cost and 5400% of the recources, you might once in a while destroy a F9W9 helhirding army with lizard chariots. Not worth calling a counter.

[UninspiredName]

Hm... How about Elephants? Chariots are girly tramplers.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[Inigo Montoya]

UninspiredName said:
Hm... How about Elephants? Chariots are girly tramplers.

The problem is they are twice as expensive as chariots, only compounding the disparity.