SE V: Unique Abilities And Ideas

[President_Elect_Shang]

And how about unique “run ways”? Bombers need this type, interceptors need that one? Maybe by using an AI Tag but without any real problem solving I couldn’t say if it would be possible or not.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Besides SJ isn’t that how everyone is modding fighters now? “Here is your hull selection pick one. Here is your engine selection pick one. Here is your component selection pick one. Now what do you want to call it?” With AT’s idea the player would need to make a series of choices based on what they wanted and those choices would in turn regulate the selections offered for the next choice. For example I want to make a fighter:

1) I have to pick the type of fighter so I choose Interceptor.

2) Next I load the base equipment which has been designed to give the Interceptor limited endurance but bonuses in other areas.

3) I pick the engines I want next. All Interceptor engines are fast but some are faster than others. Still even the slowest provide more movement than the best engines in the next class, the Duel Role Fighter. Point is Interceptors should be the fastest in my opinion.

4) Now I pick the weapons and any other extra components I want such as chaff shells, ECM, etc. Because I picked Interceptor I only have X number of slots. Less than had I picked Dule Role and far fewer than if I had picked Bomber. However, none of my weapons can target ships, bases, or planets; only fighters, mines, and satellites. Or maybe a few of them can target ships and so forth but they are weak compared to the choices for Duel Role which are still weaker than those for the bomber.

I think this has potential.

[Spectarofdeath]

I would love to see this kind of idea in game, both the different fighter designs and the in combat cloak. I know the argument against this is "everyone will just build cloaked ships and destroy everything" but what if the cloakable ships were limited to a certain size range? Lets just say 100 KT to 300 KT (I'm not sure the actual sizes in the game so this is just hypothetical). Now, the size of sub goes up as you get higher techs. Also, since the sub can "fire while cloaked" lets even this out by making it so the "Sub" can only carry a certain type of weapon (not sure if this is possible) that once it fires, it takes forever to reload. Lets say it's a missle that does 5 dmg, and it takes 3 seconds to reload, higher tech, 15 dmg, 20 seconds reload (again, not sure it can be done, really haven't looked into modding it yet). You could also limit the sub's speed so it's not allowed to run away from combat (unless it's against something like a dreadnaught). So in combat this now happens, Sub needs to get into range, anything without detection ability is going to end up running away (not knowing if it's just 1 sub or 500) the subs got limited speed so if it's against something like a CL it MAY get 1 shot at best before the combat ends. Against a DN it may be able to just follow it firing into the rear of the DN, but if your stupid enough to let a DN go away from a fleet with det then you need your brain checked esp. if you know the enemy CAN have the subs. Also love the more "personalized" fighters. Special components for special sizes of hulls. I was thinking of modding in bombers, as a vehicle, then I found out you can use the "can warp" feature, so now it would be a unit. So now you can have a war and not even have to use ships. Build some bombers, (along with some escort fighters for defense against fighers, and some torpedo bombers in case the enemy has some ships) send them through the warp point, move to the enemy planet and start to conduct bombardment. And not sure if this is possible, but it would be cool but what it a unit can transport another unit? Paratrooping special forces anyone? Or even if it's not, still, a transport being escorted by fighters, bombers and things like that, while your main fleet is busy somewhere else....man, the possibilities are endless.

[Kana]

Yeah the 'sub' is the only way I could see that not being abused in any game. Yet for SFB, the Romulans very much use a cloak in tactical combat. It is an important portion of their strategy, yet they are not allowed to use any weapons while they are under cloak. There defintely has to be some downside to using the ability of a cloak to offset the advantages...

[Atrocities]

Yes cloakable ships would be limited to a specific size limitiation. Think of them like submarines. You have your boomers, and your sub hunters/killers.

Boomers would be the largest, with each race having its own unique size limitations if the modder so desired to set it up that way.

I would hope that such weapons as Drones could be used as both a cruise missile weapon, and or a tactical or strategic interstellar weapon of mass destruction simular to our ICBM's.

Tactical is when something is used against a military asset, strategic is when it is used against a civilian target such as a major city or "planet."

Torpedo's would also be as the mainstay of this class of ship with them being semi powerful, fast, and as technology improves, semi to deadly accurate. Of course counter measure components can be researched and put on ships like Destoryers and or other vessels. (Destroyers having the best defense against Torps, while Carriers and Dreadnoughts have the worst.)

Would it be possible to make only missile weapons be able to destory ISBW (Inter Stellar Balistic Weapons) and cruise missiles?

The US and Russan Navy's love to use cruise missiles because they are so hard to kill.

[Kana]

Atrocities said:
Would it be possible to make only missile weapons be able to destory ISBW (Inter Stellar Balistic Weapons) and cruise missiles?

Yep easy, its just a matter of limiting the target types either by name (ISBW) or by unit type which will be either drone or ISBW if you changed it. This is just like it is in SE4...except we can actually add new unit types and add them to the target/nontarget list.

[Spectarofdeath]

Like I said, a downside to the cloak is a slow speed, and slow reload rate, so you get your primary shot from cloak, and depending on the target, lets say a DD with anti cloak technology, if you dont do enough dmg you could end up dead, you would need to run untill you have another shot loaded. Against say a DN (assuming it has no "anti sub" weapons and detection)it becomes a race, the DN tries to retreat and you need to follow it trying to get in as many shots as possible. I'm not sure if it's possible to use a component in combat, like say, a emergency movement pod, but you could have that to help give you a chance to either get away, or try to get in one extra shot. Not to mention the fact that you could always make a anti cloak detector for fighters and make a specific fighter to be used for ASW warfare, suddenly those big, fat, easy target carriers aren't so easy to kill. anymore. I don't know about using the drones, I hate that you can't control them yourself. Also, if you made them as unit type, you can use WP's, so sit on a WP into a enemy system, send some ICBM's through along with maybe some additional 'regular' missiles (to be used against defending ships), clear a path to your target and move in the fleet....but wait, oh oh, here comes a small fleet of enemy subs that was cloaked moving in on your transports, will your escort fighters be enough? Are the anti cloak sensors you have installed on your ASW bombers going to be powerful enough to get the subs? Is it time to bring in your Torpedo boats? (Large units, with AA capabilities as well as torpedos and fast) One other question I wonder about though, is can you make it so that in combat, sensors have a "range"? So lets say your sensors have a 10 ls range, and the enemy sub is 12 ls away, your sensors won't pick up something? Man, it would just add so much more value to the smaller ships.

[Suicide Junkie]

My point is that you DON'T get middle of the road fighters if you do it right.
You can build such multirole fighters in CBmod, but they simply are not as good in battle as efficient specialized designs.

Don't avoid generic hulls because you worry they will lead to a single generic uberdesign.
Balanced components will prevent that without you having to add restrictions.

"Fighter" in SE is IMO very equivalent to "Aircraft" in naval battles.
A bomber is the same basic thing as a dogfighter, just with less speed/engine (QNP is critical), less armor and big, slow bombardment weapons.

In a similar manner, a missile ship, a point defense ship, and an assault gunship are all the same; ships. Battleship size hulls, for a typical example. What you put on them determines what they are.
You can put missiles on an assault ship, but because all that close-quarters armor is a drain and missiles work best from max range, it just dosen't work as well. Mixing the guns is bad too, since you won't be able to use all of them effectively at the same time.
Instead, you have dedicated missile ships and dedicated assault ships and dedicated PD ships. They are individually more efficient, and each design complements the others by covering their weak points.

Because of this, those three designs emerge naturally in any game. A single wanna-be uberdesign fails because a mixed force of more efficient designs can win more battles given the same resources.

---

Allowing flexibility and generality does not result in one omnifighter design, provided that you have appropriately balanced components.
It does work in practice. I see it every day in PBW games of CBmod. Dogfighters, interceptors, bombers and eventually decoy fighters are very very distinctive, even though there are no restrictions on what you install, and the hulls are generalized.

In stock, everything is about making the one uberdesign, plus some logistics.
Proper balance allows or even requires multiple designs to coexist in a highly competitive environment with extremely generic and unrestricted hulls.

/end rant of the day

[President_Elect_Shang]

@SpecterOfDeath: I will need to read your post over when I am a little less worn out (long day and all); however, most of what you asked about can be done. Such as the sensor range is very easy to mod.

@ SJ: I had no idea this was such a stickler for you (/end rant of the day). You say specialized designs will emerge than fine. You don’t think the idea of this mod is a good one because it is an “iron-fist” approach than that’s cool to. I think it’s a fine idea with lots of potential. So lets agree to disagree and move on.

@Atrocities: I am open to fielding ideas and laying the ground work for you to review if you like. My TC isn’t going anywhere until Aaron does something about the generational components.

[Kana]

On the subject of Unit Specialization, Weapons, and Cloaking...

From Atomic Rockets (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3t.html)
Back in between WWI and WWII, the Battleship was the queen of the ocean. It had titanic guns capable of blowing enemy ships out of the water, and armor thick enough to bounce off enemy shells. Granted it had all the speed and turning radius of a pregnant hippo, but that didn't matter.

Until some clown invented the Torpedo Boat. These little gnats could run rings around the battleships, were too agile to be targeted by the battleship's guns, and had torpedoes quite capable of sending the battleship to Davy Jone's Locker. Especially since the torpedo boats would attack in packs of twenty or more. The battleship was much too ponderous to avoid the swarm of torpedoes the pack would launch.

So the Destroyer was invented. This name was actually short for "Torpedo-boat Destroyer." This was a speedy, agile warship with quick guns designed to chew up torpedo boats. Of course this ability came at a price. The destroyer speed came at the cost of no armor, and the quick guns meant they are too light to damage anything heavier than a torpedo boat.

The upshot of this is that destroyers are pathetically vulnerable to enemy battleships.

So destroyers and battleships have to support each other. Destroyers protect their sister battleships from enemy torpedo boats, and battleships protect their sister destroyers from enemy battleships.

What happens if you design a warship that is equally balanced with regards to armor, guns, and speed? You get a Cruiser. Since cruisers are not specialized, they are viable enough to operate independently. They can be detached from a fleet as a task force of one for missions such as convoy raiding, deep scouting, and related missions. Generally a cruiser can outrun anything it cannot outfight. Heavy cruisers have large endurance for long distance scouting. Medium cruisers are often used as raiders, on convoys and other soft targets. Light cruisers generally operate with a fleet, scouting and repelling attack by enemy cruisers and destroyers.

(See Attached Graph)

From Atomic Rockets (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3t.html)
There is a trade off between armor, guns, and speed. Each comes at the expense of another. One method of displaying this is by a triangular graph. It has three scales for three variables. At any point on the graph, the percentages of each variable add up to 100%. There are areas of the graph. All points to the right of the red line have a higher percentage of weapons than of defenses. All points below the blue line have more weapons than propulsion. So the pointy bit that is below the blue line and to the right of the red line are all the points where the ship has more weapons than either propulsion or defenses.

This "weapon dominance" area is divided by the green line. All points above the green line have more propulsion than defense. So the blue area containing the letter "A" is the area where a ship will have more weapons than propulsion and more propulsion than defense. Indeed, in the adjacent purple area there are no defenses at all.

As an aside, Ken Burnside points out that there are actually five major dimensions of ship design: armor, guns, speed, endurance (how long between refueling and re provisioning), and command & control (how large the bridge crew is, which boils down to how many different tasks can be done simultaneously).

From Atomic Rockets (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3t.html)
There are two classes of ships in a fleet: Main Units and Auxiliary Units.

Main units include Dreadnoughts (which were never an official type of unit but is included here as a tribute to E.E. "Doc" Smith, who spelled it "Dreadnaught"), Battleships, Battlecruisers, Heavy Cruisers, Light Cruisers, Escort Cruisers, Anti-aircraft ships, Destroyer Leaders, Destroyers, Submarines, Submarine Minelayers, Minelayers, Aircraft Carriers, and Aircraft,

Auxiliary units include Destroyer Tenders, Sub Tenders, Mine Sweepers, Aircraft Tenders, Fuel Ships (Oilers and Tankers), Supply (Logistics) Ships, Transports, Repair Ships, Hospital Ships, Colliers (missile supply ships), and Ammo ships.

There are ships that generally operate on their own, apart from any fleet. These are called Independent Units. They include Cruisers, Submarines, Gunboats, Torpedo Boats, Minelayers, Sub Chasers, Yachts, Aircraft, and assorted auxiliaries.

Don't sneer at the auxiliary units. An army marches on its stomach, and a rocket ship jets with its propellant tank. The old bromide is that amateurs study military tactics but professionals study logistics.

Of course ever since the writers of classic Star Trek took the movie The Enemy Below and re-wrote it into Balance of Terror, everybody knows that Submarines = Ships with a Cloaking Device. The advantage of submarines is that they are very good at hiding, and can attack while hid. In interplanetary terms, this would require a science fictional level of stealth, since by the laws of physics as currently understood interplanetary stealth is more or less impossible (see the entry "CLOAKING DEVICE" in The Tough Guide to the Known Galaxy). For a good treatment of this theme, read PASSAGE AT ARMS by Glen Cook. Early non-nuclear submarines needed sub tenders for logistical support. Nuclear submarines do not need them. Sub minelayers can lay mines without the large escorts that a surface minelayer requires.
The design of the ships of fleet are driven by requirements. Requirements are driven by mission and threat. The Royal Navy of the 18th century had one mission (control of the seas through destruction of the enemy fleet and blockade of his ports) and one threat (the muzzle loading black powder cannon). And it remained pretty much that way until the late 19th century. Battleships were for the destruction of the enemy fleet, and frigates (or later "cruisers") were to be where ever power was needed that didn't rate a battleship. Then newer threats showed up (the torpedo boat, the mine, the submarine) and new ships (the torpedo boat destroyer, the minesweeper, and the subchaser) appeared to counter those threats.

As those threats grew more sophisticated, and others appeared (aircraft), the design of ships and ship types changed to match. Aircraft carriers, and ships designed to counter the air threat (the Atlanta and Iowa classes) appeared. Existing ships adapted to the new threats, as destroyers became the primary defense against subs, and anti-aircraft batteries sprouted on every ship. Specialized amphibious ships were developed as the mission of projecting power ashore through troops grew more important.

After the war, the carrier was supreme, not the least because its aircraft could deliver nuclear weapons. In the US Navy the offensive mission centered totally on the carrier, and the various escorts (cruisers and destroyers) became almost purely defensive, putting up a barrier of guns, then missiles against air, and then missile attack.

(In contrast, the Soviets worked almost solely on carrier killers - cheap platforms with powerful missile armament).

For the US Navy of the future, things are changing again - the next generation "destroyer" - the DDX - will be optimized for deep attack missions against shore targets (and some of the capability will be usable for sea control). The next 'cruiser' will be a dedicated air defense platform. And a new class of ship, the "sea fighter" will take the fight close inshore, to deny the enemy the ability operate in shallow waters.

Links
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...spaceguide.htm