Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Corwin]

Ozymandias said:
Just to clarify a few things, EA Vanheim has capitol only sacreds that aren't nearly as good a chassis as Van or Helhirdling. Their defense is a respectable 12 before they berserk, but only 7 after. They cost three times as much as elite infantry of other nations. I don't believe that EA Vanheim has sacreds of excessive power.

Helheim and MA Vanheim are different. Van and Helhirdlings both have stock defense of 19. Oiorpata are the next closest sacred with 18 defense. White Centaurs, Equite of the Sacred Shroud, Tiger Riders, Wind Riders, Androphags, and Red Guard all have defense 17. Vanir cavalry have very high defense, particularly with a water blessing. This means that they are very rarely hit in melee, which provides normal troops very few chances to remove their mirror images. All of the previously listed sacred cavalry become very survivable in hand to hand with a water bless; Vanir cavalry have only a small advantage, but it is magnified by their mirror image. Also it is worth noting that of all the sacreds listed above, only Van are not capitol only.

True. I think all people are complaining mostly about Helheim and MA Vanheim. I would like to add, that even if EA Vanheim and Helheim would be toned down, IMHO it's important that these changes would not affect Midgard. (LE Vanheim)

Midgard is significantly weaker than Helheim or MA Vanheim. Their mages are much worse on the battlefield(they don't have neither air 3 van commanders, not earth 2-4 dwarves), they don't have flying sacred valkiries, and all other Midgard's national troops are relatively weak for the LA and their prices and stats, comparable to other nations. Plus because other nations have generally much better national troops in LA than in EA/MA, the advantage of van's sacred is correspondently smaller.

So personally I am ok with increasing price of sacred for Helheim and ME Vanheim a bit, but I would strongly vote against doing the same for Midgard. Notice that all people on this threat only complain about Helheim and ME Vanheim, not Midgard. If some sort of nerf will happen, it would be sad if Midgard would also be nerfed just because they also have "van" troops, despite the fact that this nation it doesn't deserve it.

[Sheap]

to have an OPTIONAL powerful nation

A nation that comes as part of the basic game is not optional, except in single player, where game balance is virtually irrelevant.

[upstreamedge]

Nether Bolts works well against van for me....

Also Eye of the void...

[HoneyBadger]

I'd like to advance the idea that, just because their aren't currently tactics to use against the Van, Helheim, that most people can agree are acceptible, doesn't mean that they have to be Nerfed, it could just mean that more tactical/strategic options should and could be added that would focus on Van and Helheim's weaknesses without making them objectively any weaker.
Beat them the same way you'd beat any real-world unbarded calvalry-whether they were invisible or not-with field fortifications or phalanx. Unfortunately, we don't have a way yet to create fieldworks or field artillery or even simple ditches or stake-rows, but you can still use lots and lots of cheap units with long sticks, and eventually they'll get through the glamour. A scriptable "form phalanx" command with slow or no movement and a strong advantage against calvalry would be a start, that or a "set pikes" function which did the same thing, would be good. Magic would serve to ensure that phalanx-formations didn't dominate battlefields, but at the same time, they'd be an effective, obvious, and realistic choice against quite a few high-powered units, Van and Helheim included.

Another idea along this line is to have "landmine" type spells. I mentioned this earlier in another post, but basically it would be spells that remain placid-or even undetectable-until units contact them, at which point they go off, doing whatever effect they do. It's another fairly obvious use of, this time, battlefield magic, and it would make sense that wizards and whatnot would develope spells that would support an army while allowing the weak wizard to get well away from the conflict and danger, atleast as far as behind some bodyguards. To keep this type of magic from getting out of control, it could automatically vanish if the casting wizard is struck by arrow, spell, melee, whatever. In the meantime it would be great at breaking up charges and unaffected by Van glamour.

A third way to stop Van is if the glamour wasn't effective against blind or darkvision foes.

A fourth way is to give archers the command "target mounts". This would enable archers to concentrate on a target's trusty steed, which is a lot easier to hit than a Van, glamour or no glamour. You could also have them use British infantry tactics, with crossbowmen shooting standing, with a row of crossbow kneeling and firing and a third row behind them reloading/waiting to fire, with a command such as "Missle Volley". Put a couple rows of stakes in front of them (I'd really like to see units have the "Defend Position" command) and Van would have bad days all over the place. It wouldn't even be unfair to Helheim, because Valkyries could still fly over the defenders.

It would be nice if units gained more advanced tactical options, such as "Defend Position" and "Target Mounts" as they and their leader gained experience. Does anyone know if units in hills or woods recieve a defense bonus? If not, that'd be a great ability to add to the game. I know some units suffer from being in a swamp, but it seems like more experienced, elite forces would know to defend themselves well, and fight better, by taking advantage of their surroundings. Naturally, magic could only add to the potential for defending positions.

[NTJedi]

HoneyBadger said:
I'd like to advance the idea that, just because their aren't currently tactics to use against the Van, Helheim, that most people can agree are acceptible, doesn't mean that they have to be Nerfed, it could just mean that more tactical/strategic options should and could be added that would focus on Van and Helheim's weaknesses without making them objectively any weaker.

I completely agree

[Meglobob]

NTJedi said:

I completely agree

So do I, I love power in my games, raise the power levels, provide more strategic/tactical options, do not nerf nation after nation until you end up with a weak game, I hate game nerfing...

[Inigo Montoya]

Corwin said:
I think all people are complaining mostly about Helheim and MA Vanheim. I would like to add, that even if EA Vanheim and Helheim would be toned down, IMHO it's important that these changes would not affect Midgard. (LE Vanheim)

Midgard is significantly weaker than Helheim or MA Vanheim. Their mages are much worse on the battlefield(they don't have neither air 3 van commanders, not earth 2-4 dwarves), they don't have flying sacred valkiries, and all other Midgard's national troops are relatively weak for the LA and their prices and stats, comparable to other nations. Plus because other nations have generally much better national troops in LA than in EA/MA, the advantage of van's sacred is correspondently smaller.

I agree with you, Corwin. Although Vanheim MA vans need to be more expensive, I do not think Midgard LA vans merit the same treatment. You leave out one of the most important reasons why Vanheim MA vans are underpriced compared to Midgard LA - Midgard vans are limited to capital only production. I actually don't mind seeing viable Vanheim MA double bless rush strategies. However, I think there needs to be a penalty for gambling on the double bless rush. Since you can mass produce Vanheim MA vans from multiple provinces then choose the location for the battle with glamour, there is no down side to the rush at the current price point for middle age vans. They need to be more expensive so that if you can catch the Vanheim player and kill the van army, that player will be devastated. Since they can rebuild from all over, taking the capital isn't a viable response.

I think the solution is to increase the resource cost of Vanheim MA vans.
The spear wielding hirdman has a spear, helmet, chain mail hauberk, and shield for 20 resources.
The valkyrie has a spear, cap, chain mail cuirass, and shield for 15 resources. This is a 25% lower resource cost for pretty much similar gear. I'm okay with that though because valkyries are limited to capital-only production.
The van has a light lance, cap, chain mail cuirass, shield, javelin, and horse for 16 resources. This makes no sense!!! Here's a unit that has a horse, a lance, and a javelin -- much more than a valkyrie for only 1 more resource and for 4 LESS than the hirdman. I think this should be bumped up to 32 resources.