Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Edi]

NTJedi said:
The reason for having an imbalanced nation is because the game has enough optional nations(over fifty) where it's strong enough to have an OPTIONAL powerful nation.

So your view of what should and should not be optional is the only valid one? Especially when we're talking about a nation that has been a staple of Dominions since the PPP days? That won't fly with anyone. There is a way to get optional über-nations and that's by modding them in either as separate nations or alterations of existing ones. Then those who want such nations can have them in their own games, but most people have no use for them at all.

NTJedi said:
Otherwise how many nations/races does Illwinter need before a very powerful nation can be introduced... 100 nations, 500 nations, 8000 nations?? Who is saying Illwinter can NEVER introduce a very powerful OPTIONAL nation??

See the other poster's reply about things that came with the stock game. And if you do want an über-nation, go mod one. It's that bloody simple. Or would that be too inconvenient, too much work for you?

NTJedi said:
To demand constant balance from a game growing with content limits the options available for gamers and developers. I'd hate for the developers to be delayed on releasing future nations because they need more time testing its balance.

Strawman. Nobody has been demanding constant perfect balance or even that an initial release of a feature be balanced. The only request is that if something is later shown to be a problem balance-wise, it be adjusted in a patch.

NTJedi said:
For those unaware I do voice my opinion for unbalanced issues which effect the entire game... as seen from AOW:SM and the flying draconian heroes which was NERFED. = LINK

Bwaaahhaaaaahaaaa! Thanks for the laugh! You're using the exact same IWOI (Invincible Wall of Ignorance) tactics in this thread that your opponents in the AoW thread used and you can't even see the irony. Oww, my sides! At this rate I'll send you the medical bill for my busted ribs...

NTJedi said:
The Vanheim issue clearly ONLY effects the entire game when Vanheim is chosen with a bless strategy! This Vanheim issue DOES NOT effect the entire game unless you choose to include them and Dominions_3 has grown with enough nations to have an optional powerful nation.

Just like Draconians in AoW were an optional choice, as were the draconian heroes and their fire breathing ability and see what you argued there with the precise same logic Graeme, Huzurdadi, I and otehrs have been using here. Thank you for providing the perfect illustration for why you are in the wrong.

Edi

[Inigo Montoya]

PDF said:
Inigo,

Why not just have MA Vanheim Vans limited to capitol-only ?
To me it'll be sufficient to rebalance MA Vanheim.

Without a doubt it would be more fair, but I worry some flavor will be lost. I think the developers envisioned vans being more common in the middle age and that's why they made them non-capital production. Valkyries are supposed to be your "rare" units in that age.

What I don't want to do at all is make the nations more similar to achieve balance. The joy of Dominions is balance through diversity and flexibility rather than balance by sameness.

[PDF]

Inigo Montoya said:

Without a doubt it would be more fair, but I worry some flavor will be lost. I think the developers envisioned vans being more common in the middle age and that's why they made them non-capital production. Valkyries are supposed to be your "rare" units in that age.

What I don't want to do at all is make the nations more similar to achieve balance. The joy of Dominions is balance through diversity and flexibility rather than balance by sameness.

Yep that's a valid issue. Then can I throw another suggestion : maybe then we could have "sacred vans" capitol-only and a tad weaker "mundane vans" elsewhere - ie the same differences than Mtnd Heirdlings vs Heiherdlings from LA Helheim ?

[SelfishGene]

EA Hellheim and Vanheim units should lose glamour and stealth; Hellhirdrings cost +40.

ME Vanheim has stealth +10, glamour (25 stealth) only on scouts and maybe one or two units. Vans cost +40(ish).

LE Vanheim has stealth and glamour. Van cost +40.

All high def sacred EA cavalry should also get a cost bump (Centaurs, ect..).

[Teraswaerto]

EA Vans should definately not lose glamour, it is very much thematic for them and removing it is not the only solution to balance problems.

[UninspiredName]

That suggestion is sort of overkill... Glamour is their defining trait, really, and they'd probably be weaker than they are worthwhile if you take it away. Thematically, it also seems weird that Late Age gets more... Wondrous, let's say, Vans than Middle Age.

And asking for sacred cavalry (Don't they all have high def?) of an entire age, in nations that aren't causing any trouble to become less easilly deployed is a step towards the sameness mentioned right above, in my eyes.

[SelfishGene]

Glamour should be seen less as a combat skill and more a reflection of their pending dissapearance from the world.

In other words, during the early days, the Elven peoples did not need to hide from the prying eyes of the mortal races, but as time goes on and their numbers reduce they become more and more hidden and reclusive.

If you felt the need to compensate them, you could add STR or HP, so that during the "early" days they are more straightfowardly strong, but as the later ages progress they must turn their strength to stealth, or whatever.

[SelfishGene]

Also like i argued in another forum, Vans are too powerful for their cost according to the very balance logic of Dominions . 70 gold? For a 25 stealth, sacred 12 armor, high defense, good attack, fastest cavalry in the game, unit? That's a silly thing .

Remember, what changed between the games was the concepts of Ages. What passed for a mediocre unit before - like Myrmiddon - suddenly becomes much more powerful in the early eras before there are crossbows or other high armor units.

Vans in Dominions 2 had to go against the full gamut of high-armor/defence units. In the EA, Hellhirdrings have almost as high armor values as any other high end unit. Hellhirdrings and to some extent, Vans, are proportionately much more powerful now than they were in Dom2. The increase cost in research also slowed down magical countersteps.

[Edi]

Of all the ideas in this thread, the suggestion to take away glamour is far and away the stupidest one.

It's one of the defining characteristics of the Vanir, so taking it away will just break things even worse. Increased gold and resource cost, possibly a reduction of defense and perhaps increased strength, giving them less of a stealth bonus and other such could be good solutions. Afaik stealth isn't tied to glamour. It was not in Dom2, glamour units were just given stealth +25 as a matter of thematics, but e.g. the Mother of Tuathas which had glamour only had stealth 0.

Edi

[SelfishGene]

Edi said:
Of all the ideas in this thread, the suggestion to take away glamour is far and away the stupidest one.

You're welcome!