Possible missing nations in Dom III?

[Epaminondas]

One of the great appeals of Dom III is its dazzling variety of nations from which we can choose (as well as the fact that the developers have done a decent job of balancing truly disparate nations--a formidable task in itself).

Nonetheless, there are certain "obvious" historical/fantasy nation choices that seem to be missing from Dom III, and I am wondering if there are any plans to add them. In the alternative, if they are "out of the picture," I'd be interested to know the whys.

1. An Elven nation: I recall that one of the developers said that they definitely won't be in the game but did not proffer the reason for their absence. Why would this be? Elves are quite possibly the most frequently-occurring fantasy race. I suppose I can imagine two reasons. First, the developers might have wanted to get away from the classical elves, dwarves, orcs, et al. formula because they are too shopworn. Second, the traits that elves are usually deem to possess might conflict with the traits associated with the Vanir or the Tuatha.

2. A Dwarven nation: I am puzzled as to their absence for the same reason I articulated in regard to elves. But I see a more powerful rationale here, given that dwarves are part of Scandinavian mythos, so there will certainly be problematic overlaps.

3. A nation based on Korea: Given that there are three nations based on Scandinavia, it is difficult to see how there is not even one nation based on Korea. Korea was a more important player than Japan in Far Eastern history until really the Meiji reforms in the 1800s, and it has probably a richer historical and cultural tradition than Japan (though probably not as much as the Japan-inferiority-complex-ridden Koreans claim). Other games that endeavor to include the major global civilizations of the world (e.g. the Civ series) almost always have Korea represented, and there is no reason that Dom III shouldn't.

As an aside, I find that this game is woefully lacking in representation regarding East Asia in general. It has two representative nations from a civilization that rivaled and perhaps exceeded that of the West for most of recorded history. Again, For Christ's sake, (no offense to the developers who are Scandinavians but...) Scandinavia gets 3 representatives in the Early Era of Dom III. I suppose Scandinavia has historically been more important than the entirety of the Far East put together!

On a related issue, it seems to be insulting to conflate the entire steppe/Mongolian civilization with the Sinic civilization of China. While the histories of the two people often collided and intersected, they developed distinctively different traditions, in particular military.

4. A nation based on Egypt: Egypt was a central player in Western history at least until Actium. Like Korea, it also has a rich mythological and historical tradition. Also like Korea, it is usually represented in most games that base their sides on the global civilizations. So why not here?

[void]

Epaminondas said:

3. A nation based on Korea: Given that there are three nations based on Scandinavia, it is difficult to see how there is not even one nation based on Korea. Korea was a more important player than Japan in Far Eastern history until really the Meiji reforms in the 1800s, and it has probably a richer historical and cultural tradition than Japan (though probably not as much as the Japan-inferiority-complex-ridden Koreans claim). Other games that endeavor to include the major global civilizations of the world (e.g. the Civ series) almost always have Korea represented, and there is no reason that Dom III shouldn't.

Reminder:

The famous CCG Magic: The Gathering (owned by Wizards of the Coast WOTC that is also the owner of Dungeons & Dragons) released it's first Far Eastern expansion PORTAL: THREE KINGDOMS(http://www.wizards.com/magic/p3k/p3k_edition.asp) at July. 6. 1999 that's based on "T'ien C'hi" history.

The 2nd MTG expansion of Far Eastern known as CHAMPIONS OF KAMIGAWA(http://www.wizards.com/magic/display...page=1&lang=en) released at Auguest. 2004, which described a war between Human and Spirits--or, people and oni.

And shall I say that, the very ARABIAN NIGHTS is the first expansion of MTG released December 1993....

No Korea block yet.

Edit:
BTW, there's no Korea civilization in CIV3 till its first expansion.

[HoneyBadger]

I'd love to see Korea and Tibet/Nepal. So far, I haven't found Tibetan mythology to be that accessible online, but I've only made a minimal effort. Persia/Arabia-ala Arabian Nights, and the Vedas-for that matter would be another excellent source of nations. I think Johan and Kristoffer purposefully have not given elves/dwarves as much as other games, partially I believe because elves and dwarves are fantasy novel steriotypes who don't actually feature much in real world mythology. Duergar, domovoi, gnomes, brownes, kobolds, etc. do show up in mythology at large, but dwarves in the Tolkien-sense are pretty much purely a Norse invention, and the Heim nations have them as sorcerors, which they traditionally were. Elves on the other hand-also a Norse invention, as much as they were an invention of the Keltoi and the British, are to be found primarily as Tuatha de Danaan, the Welsh Daonie Sidhe, the (again Norse) Darkalfar-which are closer to dwarves, by the way, or as vague impressions of peoples in other cultures' mythologies who might kinda-sorta fit our image of elves, for instance, the pale people of various Amerindian cultures. I think the basic, strong, integral concept behind this game is that it's based on Pretenders inforcing their versions of mythology and reality upon the world, not taking an already existing fantasy world and having the citizens of that world fight one another. It's a little bit like the Torg RPG, if you're at all familiar with that (not likely, I admit).

[Mind Elemental]

Hi Epaminondas,

Just thought I'd nitpick.

3. I wouldn't call the steppe nations conflated with China - that's only the case for late TC, which is in any case pretty heavily sinicised. The steppe nations are absent from MA, but in EA they're represented by Sauromatia (I know, from the opposite end of the Eurasian continent).

4. Isn't C'tis very loosely based on Egypt?

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah, what kind of mythology do Mongolians and Siberians concern themselves with? Not to mention old Russia and the Cossac peoples? It would also be interesting to see a nation based on Gypsies, or Aryans, or the Slavic peoples. Maybe West Africa and Nubia or Central Africa and the Pygmies. We have Machaka which seems to be African, maybe Zulu in nature. I know that Nerfix made the Sar Elad nation based on the Israelites. We don't even have to rely on historical or even mythological based nations. Some really good nations could come out of Empire of the Petal Throne RPG, Talislanta RPG, or Narnia. I'm working on nations based on H.P. Lovecraft and some others. Late 19th and early 20th century authors are a fantastic source of creative material. H.P. Lovecraft and J.R.R. Tolkien are just the tip of the iceburg. C.S. Lewis and the other lesser-known "inklings", William Hope Hodgson, H. Ryder Haggard, H.G. Wells, Jules Verne, the list goes on and on. People really had great imaginations back then before television and fast food sucked our brains out and everywhere you went started looking like everywhere you've already been. Ok that's not really fair, the main issue is that, with the spread of information, our imaginary landscapes have started to resemble each other's to a greater degree than was previously possible, except where the Bible was concerned, and consequently we get elves, dwarves, dragons, wizards, magic swords, and castles ad nauseum, which is why I'm recommending for interesting (read "truly bizarre") ideas, it's a good idea to dig a bit into the past, not that the likes of Neil Gaiman, Jack Vance, Steven Spielburg, George Lucas, Harlan Ellison, Stephen King, Clive Barker, Brian Lumley, J.K. Rowling, and a host of others with fine imaginations are doing us a disservice, it's just that it's more likely now than at any other time in history that their ideas and our ideas will be recycled ones.

[Endoperez]

Elves - Tolkien came up with elves. Hoburgs are pretty close to the mythological elves, or tomte, in the early era; the armor and such they have later is different. Gnomes, from few sites, are also good repressentations of the elves of the lore.

Fair Folk were in DomII (tuatha), and will reappear in Dom3, but are currently missing.

There are many nations that have some or even all features a dwarf nation would have:

All Vanheim nations have dwarves. Svartalfar are, again, a good representation of dwarfs (the original plural), but not of dwarves (Tolkien's plural).
We also happen to have two strongly-armored, magic-weak nations in MA (Ulm, Agartha). Ulm is an easier example: strong, tough and resilient soldiers, mountains, superior metals, Master Smiths, Earth mages, forge bonus, elite guards with castle defence bonus, crossbowmen, sappers... Humans of Agartha live under ground and see in the dark; their magic and national spells and Pale One recruitables wouldn't make this purely dwarven nation, but a nation of dwarf-Agarthan alliance. Best LA Agarthan mages happen to be quite similar to Svartalfar, too.

[zepath]

We could whine for days about the various mythologies that are under-represented in Dom3, but please keep in mind that the devs are still producing content for the game and have said that they have many more ideas for new nations. You may be able to satisfy yourself with mod nations that other players put out. For instance, I've made and released a complete elven nation in all it's D&D/commercial high fantasy glory if you wish to play with it. There's a semi-cliche dwarf nation there in the maps & mods sub-forum as well. Personally I am deeply impressed by the mythological knowledge the devs have compiled in this game and enjoy learning about the myths of other regions while soaking up the turn-based goodness. They have done a better job on content than any game of this genre I've played. Oh, and C'tis is something like 90% Egypt...

[Endoperez]

It seems I forgot to reply to the second half of Epaminonda's post...

Sauromatia is inspires by Herodotus' descriptions of the Scythians. C'tis is inspiree by Egypt and Mesopotamia.

While the majority of the historical-based nations (as opposed to fictional ones like R'lyeh) are based on European myths, there are several nations that are based on Asian or other myths. From Asia, in the Early age, there are:

Yomi (Japan), Tien Chi (China), Bandar Log (India), Lanka (India/Sri Lanka).

From Europe, there are:
Arcoscephale (Greece), Ermor (Rome/Byzantine), Ulm (German barbarians), Marverni (Celt/Gaul), Pangaea (Greece), Vanheim, Helheim and Niefelheim (Scandinavia).

There are also Sauromatia (Schythians), Caelum (Zoroastrian influences) and C'tis (Egypt). I'm not quite sure where Scythians lived, or where Zoroastrism was practised, but I think they were in Middle East or northern Africa, not Europe.

[Sandman]

An Elven nation: I recall that one of the developers said that they definitely won't be in the game but did not proffer the reason for their absence. Why would this be? Elves are quite possibly the most frequently-occurring fantasy race.

You've answered your own question there. Elves are boring, boring, boring. Same with dwarves.

Other games that endeavor to include the major global civilizations of the world (e.g. the Civ series) almost always have Korea represented, and there is no reason that Dom III shouldn't.

Dominions is a fantasy wargame, and I don't think that 'representation' is really an important factor in what nations are added.

[Edi]

1) Tuatha are elves and will appear in alater patch. The Vanir are also elven in nature. Dominions is also not a cut-and-paste Tolkien or D&D copy, hence no traditional fantasy elves ever, and a good thing too.

2) See point about cut-and-paste above. We have all the dwarves we need with the Vanheim and Helheim.

3) See Endoperez's listing of Asian nations. Shinuyama, Yoni, Yomon, T'ien C'hi (3 eras), Kailasa, Lanka and the other Indian myhtology based stuff gives Asia more than a fair shake, but I'm not opposed to getting more from there.

4) C'tis has rather heavy Egyptian influences, possibly conflated with the Stygians from Robert E. Howard's Conan books (at least I get that feel from them, especially the LE C'tis)

If we're going to have more new nations, I'd really like to see something based on the myths from the Australian and Pacific Islands region and the Borneo and Indonesian area as well as something modeled after the myths of the North American natives. Of course, those mythologies may be harder to get hold of.

Edi