why buy armor?

[bhutnath]

Thank you for your extensive response.

I read your article, good stuff.

I recognize the advantage armor and IFV can bring. However, I wonder if in game point terms if they are worth it? In games with large number of points the vicotry hex points comprise of only a fraction of total points. Loss of a single tank can cost one any where from 300-600 points. So loss of say 5 t90 tanks would cost about 2500-3000 points! very diffult to accumulate this kind of points against an opponent with just infantry tucks and arty units.

So even if you fail to capture the V-hexes, I would suspect you can at least draw the game by geting few hugh value armored units with your atgm and arty?

-Ak

[Mobhack]

The point of warfare is to destroy the enemy forced in the field without suffering undue loses yourself.

"Victory hexes" are a simplistic game method of pointing out to (probably civilian) players (and the AI) where might be a good place to go and/or defend, really. Like those paintball gun games where someone takes the flag to "win".

They also help the AI decide when to throw in the towel

There are no such things as "terrain objectives" in modern warfare. Terrain is only of value if it gives you an advantage or denial of it from the enemy confounds any such for him. There may be phase lines and reporting points, but those are to shape the battle plan, not "must throw a million troops at it WW1 style" things.

(It is also a normal point in civilian wargames that these objectives are common to both sides as well!

Look at the points awarded for v-hexes as a bonus, or "gravy" to sweep up after or during the real mission of deleting enemy units (while protecting yours) as appropriate. (while remeberig that both you and the opponent will eventually concentrate in those areas) The paintball type "take the flag to win, regardless of cost" is not appropriate here.

If playing PBEM human against human - you really should consider having no artificial "victory flags" at all. Then you can concentrate on the proper find,fix and strike process on the enemy forces, which is a different task altogether without these "hint markers" plonked on the map! .

Cheers
Andy

[Thexder]

bhutnath said:
So even if you fail to capture the V-hexes, I would suspect you can at least draw the game by geting few hugh value armored units with your atgm and arty?

-Ak

IMO using the standard scoring system in SP doesn't make sense as it undervalues the VLs. What I've found usefull is to use "Weasel scoring" chart that gives VLs their proper value. I send it with this message, I'm sure you'll find it useful.

You might also want to check Weasel's new experimental rules here: http://www.theblitz.org/message_boar....php?tid=37617

One must make own rules for the battles in order to make them as realistic and enjoyable as possible. In MBT arty and infantry are too good in value/price and armor many times next to useless as you've said. In my battles I use the following set of rules, which I've find out to rise the enjoyment in another level: http://koti.mbnet.fi/thexder/Steel/steelrulesIII.html

Cheers,
Jukka

[Thexder]

Here's the file...

[bhutnath]

rremoving the v-hexes or setting their value to 1 souhnds like an excellent idea!


thanks for the links. The 'rules' look intersting. I am also looking forward to the new patch and see how that might work out. I am not familiar with the logic of 'valuing' pieces in MBT. Surely it must have gone through a lot scrutiny from the community at large? After all its at the heart of SP as a game.

I suspect it based on the capabilities of each units in terms of thermals armor number of ammunitions etc. However, it might be very difficult to value these pieces based on their actual use in battle.

I do find arty dirt cheap specialy if you allow the logistical support of ammo dump you can drop cluster munitions all day long. prob a bit gamey as the above links suggest. But then I have never even fired a rifle (well I have fired a few rounds from 22mm rifle in colledge!) and dont know a think about military except they get a very large share of the taxes I pay. I do understand the rules of the game and can only plan to play according to the rules. What I am saying is that I have no choice but to rely on other experts to develop a set of rules that works as a best compromise between reality and gameplay. But given the current set of rules, I am still not convinced that armor is a worthwhile purchase.


Just the other day I was thinking of using the m190a2 (not sure of the name, the 203mm sp arty US) as a close support unit for it costs barely 30-35 points!! Even the cheapest tank in the pakistan armed forces - m4 patton of the 1950-60 era come for 150+ points. Sure it can tanks, but in 2010 I just want it for it close support.

Been thinking of using howitze with apc as a mobile fire support team right up in the front. For no other reason but they are so damn cheap.

I dont know about advanced nations, but surely most countries cannot afford to use their best 155mm arty is such fashion!

One of the points in suggested rules was no ammo reloads for helos in ME. I think that would make helos rather expensive for their limited atgm capacity! specialy if facing active defence equiped armor! I never buy fighters for just this reason, too damn expensive and too easily shot down.

[bhutnath]

it just strck me, that part of the reason why I find armored units so expensive is that one can keep atgm troops supplied through ammo dumps/trucks etc. But is that realistic? Can and do atgm troops recieve replenishment in battles (within matter of minutes?) I would hazaard guess, no! I suspect it same for artillery. Surely they dont get replenished so quickly as in game. I suspect ammo dumps may not be as near as 3-4 km from the front in real battles?

So do the ammo dump/trucks etc make the game unrealistic? Withought them, the value of armored units would go up dramaticaly in my eyes
But then the sams deplete their ammo very fast, surely most SAM batteries have more than 3 shots per launcher at hand. THey must not have to waite like half to full day for more replenishments to arrive from rear. So select units be allowed ammo dump? but the ammo dumps themsleves have unlimited ammo of all kinds so this could allow one launcher to launch 20-30 missileso in a 40 turn game (4 hours of fighting), this sound like an unrealistic number.

I suspect the key to improvement may lie with developing a better logistic system?
-Ak

[Weasel]

bhutnath said:
rremoving the v-hexes or setting their value to 1 souhnds like an excellent idea!

I just finished a game where we reduced the battle points from 2:1 (assault) to 1.5:1 and the flags to 1 point each. It is the first assault I have played where they assaulting player actually lost by a minor. Normally all others have been medium wins.

So I think the flag reduction and point reduction made a big difference.

[Listy]

A note on ammo trucks:

A switched on opponent will put you in a world of hurt if you clump your blokes around ammo supplies.

You mentioned arty with ammo dumps. Arty will give away its position by smoke. A lot of players I know keep an eye on the back field for just such a target. So does the AI I believe.

When an ammo dump goes bang its very enthusiastic about it.

[bhutnath]

Listy said:
A note on ammo trucks:

A switched on opponent will put you in a world of hurt if you clump your blokes around ammo supplies.

You mentioned arty with ammo dumps. Arty will give away its position by smoke. A lot of players I know keep an eye on the back field for just such a target. So does the AI I believe.

When an ammo dump goes bang its very enthusiastic about it.

I would like to know if the arty becomes visible (not just smoke) after a few rounds of firing. Here is what I have been doing, if I get a SP arty system or multiple barrel rocket laucnh system like the b-21, I buy a dump per vehicle . Shoot and run to dump, reposition, shoot run to dump. Most of the time the opponent's counter battery fire drops on nothing.

Recently I have been wondering if I cant get cheaper but towed arty system which not only are equaly effective but offer me a continous barrage capability which i loose with scoot and shoot.

So I buy myself a arty brigade (3-4 regiment) with one regiment of same callibre guns with cluster munitions. I buy one dump per cluster mun equiped tube and 1 dump per platoon of regular arty.

Then I scatter them around all over the map. Since a dump can supply over 2 hex the regular arty platoon is arange in a 'traible' where each arty is 2 hexes away from the a dump. The expensive cluster mun equipped guns are all alone by themselves with their own private dumps! (but 2 hex away to escape blast if dump is destroyed)

Each time I fire I use some guns to add more smoke on the map. Now, here is where I dont know if the guns become visible with few rounds, for otherwise there would be about 60-90 odd, smoked hex on the back part of the map within 2 turns of firing with only 48 or so of them containing an arty piece. I do loose some arty in the course of the game, but so far my opponents have given up on taking them out. One advantage of keeping all guns of the same callibre is the opponent has to guess which are the cheap non cluster and which are the expensive ones!

I havent played too many games yet, so i suspect there may be a lot of learning to come by the way of a game with seasoned opponent.
-Ak

[bhutnath]

I would like to know if the arty becomes visible (not just smoke) after a few rounds of firing. Here is what I have been doing, if I get a SP arty system or multiple barrel rocket laucnh system like the b-21, I buy a dump per vehicle . Shoot and run to dump, reposition, shoot run to dump. Most of the time the opponent's counter battery fire drops on nothing.

Recently I have been wondering if I cant get cheaper but towed arty system which not only are equaly effective but offer me a continous barrage capability which i loose with scoot and shoot.

So I buy myself a arty brigade (3-4 regiment) with one regiment of same callibre guns with cluster munitions. I buy one dump per cluster mun equiped tube and 1 dump per platoon of regular arty.

Then I scatter them around all over the map. Since a dump can supply over 2 hex the regular arty platoon is arange in a 'traible' where each arty is 2 hexes away from the a dump. The expensive cluster mun equipped guns are all alone by themselves with their own private dumps! (but 2 hex away to escape blast if dump is destroyed)

Each time I fire I use some guns to add more smoke on the map. Now, here is where I dont know if the guns become visible with few rounds, for otherwise there would be about 60-90 odd, smoked hex on the back part of the map within 2 turns of firing with only 48 or so of them containing an arty piece. I do loose some arty in the course of the game, but so far my opponents have given up on taking them out. One advantage of keeping all guns of the same callibre is the opponent has to guess which are the cheap non cluster and which are the expensive ones!

I havent played too many games yet, so i suspect there may be a lot of learning to come by the way of a game with seasoned opponent.
-Ak