OT- Anyone read Old man's war?

[Randallw]

I can see what you mean Narf, and believe me I despise discrimination, between huamns. The idea that just because someone is different or even has different skin makes them worth less is absurd. Any human being can kill another, it doesn't matter what colour their skin is, but I am opposed to the idea that aliens are somehow like us but in a different body. A lot of this conjecture is distracting since we don't even know if aliens exist, but if they do exist I feel it would be a giant mistake to treat them as "human". A Lion and a zebra are both animals but does this stop the Lion eating the Zebra. No, because the Lion needs to eat to live. In its mind the Zebra exists only to further its own existance. Aliens would be alien, not only in body but mind. Short of Humans having been seeded by ancients aliens won't be human. Who will be able to tell what they will think or plan. Our repsonsibility is to advance mankind, not only through putting aside our divisions, after all we are all humans, we can feel emotions for each other, but by ensuring the continuation of the species by acting in our best interests. Animals here on earth are useful because we share proteins. we can use them to fuel ourselves. Animals we don't eat we can relate to because they share a common origin, 1 head, 4 limbs. But aliens offer us no benefits or familiarity, they are a threat. Consider the long term. If we go out into space and meet another race what will we do?. Will we agree not to expand beacuse it might lead to conflict. The result of that is in a few thousand years we are stuck on earth starving because we used up all the resources, or stagnant because we do not wish to grow and use more resources, and meanwhile the aliens have followed their own agenda and one day the human race discovers the aliens have an overwhelming advantage and then for their own "alien" reasons they decide they don't like humans being around. Why shouldn't they destroy us, they owe us nothing, we aren't them. That probe that got sent out with a greeting from humanity to aliens and an illustration of us saying hello. That has to be the stupidest thing we ever did. If somehow aliens do find it, and this is applying human thinking so granted alien minds might be different, but are you willing to risk humanity on it, what might the aliens do. "oh look there's this primitive oxygen breathing race where this probe came from. Let's exterminate them so they don't pose a threat in a million years"

Let me use a final analogy. Let's compare Humanity going out into the stars and possibly meeting aliens. I say compare it to a man swimming out into the ocean (and yes I know I am slipping into a Robert Heinlen example). He finds himself surrounded on all sides by water. If he get's tired he might drown. The water doesn't care what happens to him. Meanwhile sharks are swimming around. They aren't going to think "oh look a fellow traveller in the ocean. Let's be friends" no, they will eat him because the only thing he offers is food.

I realise my arguments revolve around meeting a race at the same level as us, and that's highly unlikely. They might be so high above us we are literally ants compared to them. You don't watch what you do for the sake of ants (unless you're a jain). You step on them and never notice. The roles might be reversed. We discover aliens less developed then us. What should humanity care for them?. They're not cute little fellow apes. Leave them alone, someday they will evolve and then they might be a threat. Why put it off. Exterminate them at once and maybe we might even be able to gain resources for ourselves.

I don't consider myself some crackpot. I don't believe in flying saucers, area 52, or aliens controlling the government. That's x-files sci-fi genre staple. I am a realist, and to me what makes sense is that aliens, if they exist, pose nothing but a threat to humanity. You know what the US government plans to do if they meet aliens, hmm. Not say hello and take it to their leader. They will whisk it away to a bio-hazard lab because it might be dangerous.

In my defence. This does not indicate bigotry on my part. It is not hatred of other people. It is the opposite. It is love of humanity. Doing what is in the best interests of all people. Aliens are not people.

whew. I'm tired. I'm off to bed

[President_Elect_Shang]

Before I break into my questions let me say I agree with you completely. I didn't get my degree in Anthropology because it was a soft degree. It may be and I won't argue that; I got it because I love humans. Point blank! I love the things we build, the mistakes we make, the joys we share. I love to understand why we want to walk across the grass when there is a perfectly smooth concrete walkway. And I have tolerated my share of bigotry. Twelve years of being married to a black woman has made for some very *ahem* interesting moments. Anyway now that I have made that clear I have to ask (it's the Anthro guy in me):

Being human means extending our understanding; and yes even our emotions, to other creatures. For example the love we feel a pet. Does your cat really feel love or are you extending your love onto it? So if part of being a human is that ability to extend wouldn't your ideas be anti-human? Don't extend human understanding to the aliens just wipe them out right now. The lions and the sharks pose a threat to us. People are injured by how many shark attacks per year? More than one? Why don't we wipe out the sharks? They have no resemblance to humans and saying they share a common origin hasn't stopped us before. What about the other hominids we may have wiped out? All the Mega Fauna which may have been in decline but clearly dropped off after modern humans arrived. As humans shouldn't we at least try to extend one hand in peace even if we are keeping the other on "the button"? Otherwise won't we become the very aliens you speak of exterminating?

[Randallw]

I have to be honest PES, I can't reaslly answer a question about emotions. I am autistic and don't feel emotions like normal people apparently. When I say I have love for all humans I really mean I feel a logical protectiveness. It is logical that I want all humanity to survive. Although I don't see any basis in reality for discrimination, I also don't feel much care for other humans. If you met me in person you might get the feeling I am a bit "alien" as I fail to respond emotionally.

Part of my argument comes from my own reactions. Since I feel no interest in other people it makes sense to me that "aliens" even further removed from human emotions would care even less. Maybe care is not the right word.

You make some interesting arguments, but I am not equipped to discuss that sort of thing. I find many emotional responses to logically make little sense.

ps. Let me go off on a tangent. You know the scene in Blade Runner where they run the test to see if the person is a replicant by asking what they would do if they found a turtle lying on it's shell. It seems to me, why do anything. It makes no difference to me what happens to some animal I find, unless of course I'm hungry. To quote Terry Pratchett "There's good eating on those"

yeah, I tend to detour a lot when I write. Made it hard for me to answer exams .

edit: Actually, if it helps I'll open up a bit more. I do feel some emotions, unfortunately they are related to another condition I have. Annoyance and Paranoia. Perhaps they are somehow responsible for the resolutions I come up with. I sometimes think I'm a Klingon inside the body of a Vulcan

[narf poit chez BOOM]

The simple fact is, though, that your responce is based on the same Us vs. Them responce.

You are argueing that since aliens aren't 'Us' they are the dangerous 'Them'.

And logically, we would likely have a very large area of space to expand into. And by the time we fill that up, it's quite likely we would have found other ways to expand.

Like turning vaccuum energy into matter.

[Randallw]

I guess you're right Narf. To be honest I'm getting tired of this. I'm glad we can discuss things without falling to bickering.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I wasn't looking for a right or wrong answer. How you answered is just what I was looking for. That is me, that is who I am. I don't want to know that you walked across the grass. I want to know why you didn't use the sidewalk. Put another way I don't want to know why you chose right from wrong, good from evil, up from down. I want to know why you didn't choose.

[Glyn]

What I want to known is why they didn't build the sidewalk in the correct place!



If you were placed in a room with 100 other potential hostile people would you. Would you start to kill everyone you met or would you try to make an alliance first. (Each would be armed with different tech level of weapons and armor. Being the last to join the group you would have the most primitive forms of each.)


When humans expands into space, it would be to our best interest to make allies. Link our continued existence with their continued existence.

If we try to go it alone then we would be a threat to every race out there. It would be in their best interest for each of them to commit a small force and together wipe us out.



"We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately." by Benjamin Franklin




Yes I read the book. Very good! The sequel "Ghost Brigade"(?) is just as good!