Stealth Armor: Unbalanced

DirectorTsaarx · #1 December 12th, 2001, 05:23 PM

I have another interesting idea to add to all this; it may have been mentioned before, but I'm too lazy to search for it.

(EDIT: the below speculations would require hard-code changes, not just modding /EDIT)

Instead of the absolute system of "sensor X defeats cloak Y", make it a percentage chance. For consistency & believability, higher-level sensors should have a 99% or 100% chance of defeating lower-level cloaks/stealth. But (as seen in many Star Trek episodes, both old & new), sometimes an experienced captain (or his experienced science officer) can find ways to detect cloaked ships. Which brings up the other part of the plan: ship experience (and maybe fleet experience) provide bonuses on the cloak/sensor percentages. So an experienced ship/fleet can use their stealth better, and an experienced ship/fleet can detect cloaked ships better.

That's the qualitative view; the quantitative view requires a bit of work for balancing, but maybe something like:

Sensor I: 100% chance to detect Level 2 cloak
50% chance to detect Level 3 cloak
25% chance to detect Level 4 cloak
0% chance to detect Level 5 cloak

Sensor II: 120% chance to detect Level 2 cloak
100% chance to detect Level 3 cloak
50% chance to detect Level 4 cloak
0% chance to detect Level 5 cloak

Sensor III: 140% chance to detect Level 2 cloak
120% chance to detect Level 3 cloak
100% chance to detect Level 4 cloak
50% chance to detect Level 5 cloak

If the sensor ship has experience, that counts as a direct bonus (e.g., 20% experience and Sensor II gives a 70% chance to detect a Level 4 cloak).

If the cloaked ship has experience, that counts as a direct penalty against the sensor (so that same 20% experience ship with Level 4 cloaking has a 70% chance of sneaking by a satellite with Sensors II).

Finally, the different types of cloaking have bonuses/penalties against different types of sensors. (The chart above is for when the sensor type matches the cloak type, e.g. Temporal vs. Temporal). So a Psychic Sensor would have a 20% penalty vs. Temporal Cloak, but maybe a 10% bonus against standard cloaking.

We could even get really tricky and apply bonuses or penalties for actions by the cloaked ship; like a bonus if the ship doesn't move, and a penalty if it moves more than 5 spaces in a single game turn. Even add bonuses & penalties according to size, just like the to-hit bonus/penalties.

As Geo points out, this would give the AI fits, especially if it has to research multiple cloaking and sensor techs and build ships/satellites with all of the various components (or at least fleet together a set of ships, each with a different type of sensor). But it would be interesting...

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: DirectorTsaarx ]

Baron Munchausen · #2 December 12th, 2001, 05:59 PM

All these variations sound like great fun for humans. Have you considered what will happen to the AI?

I doubt that an AI capable of sorting through all these cloak inter-relations has ever been designed. MM is having enough trouble making one smart enough to handle standard ships and units in open combat.

I'd be very happy to see cloaking/sensor operation changed to be range sensitive. If weaker sensors could detect even strong cloaks at short range and stronger sensors detect weaker cloaks at greater and greater range we'd have a pretty realistic system. Then expand the size of system maps a bit. We might have to use a 'windowed' navigation system like the combat screen but it'd be worth it. All the other stuff can be modded reasonably well for people that want it for 'human only' games.

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

LGM · #3 December 12th, 2001, 08:54 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
All these variations sound like great fun for humans. Have you considered what will happen to the AI?
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Who cares about the AI? I play only PBW games, unless I am testing something to try in a PBW game. Without cheating, AI will be at a severe disadvantage. Currently, SEIV empires do not remember things like Last known position of fleets, Last known presense of colonies, etc. The limited stored information in the game severly works against an AI, assuming you programmed it to think about these things. Perhaps special AI files could be stored on the hosting computer to remember stuff that player's empires currently cannot recall. Unless you are playing a rediculously simple game like Risk, the AI will be too hard to program competitively. People devote their entire careers writing AIs for Chess only has 16 units per side with 6 different kinds of pieces. Chess also has an exhaustive catalog of known good lines to follow that can be built into a database. SEIV and most strategic games are too complicated to program. When are you AIers going to give it up and let Aaron work on new features to make the game more diverse? The purpose of the AI is to learn the game so you do not get creamed by the first experienced human you meet. If you are not bored playing the AI, you are not ready to play humans.

The best effect of cloaks is it causes your opponent to research and deploy some sensors. Stealth Armor is nice in combination with Scattering armor for defense bonuses. If you get Stealth Armor, you expect to use it only for a short while. The same with Boarding Parties as someone else mentioned. However, with Boarding Parties, every ship needs a security team. Whereas to counter stealth, you only need one device per system (not per ship).

I like the idea of making racial cloaks one level hard to defeat for the non racial counter techs as long as the non racial counters are extended one level more in the game so they can be eventually countered. I do not want to be forced to play a certain advanced techs every game. As it stands now, I feel you have to either play Organic or design to fight an Organic. I would hate to have to always take Psychic just be be able to see the top level Psychic cloak.

I do not consider Stealth Armor to unbalancing (original thread), because its stealth effect never improves as you go from component I to II to III. The first sensor that can see it permanent negates it until they go for the actual Cloaking device under the Physics tree.

Beck · #4 December 12th, 2001, 11:43 PM

An Uber-weapon specific to races wouldn't have to be MAD, it would depend on what the item was. All I was trying to do was point out there are ways of balancing other than simply giving everybody a counter. If I can't see them now because I haven't developed the right scanner, I have to adapt my style of play to make allowances for not being able to see them. The only difference a Uber-cloak would make, is I'll never be able to see them unless I trade for a scanner. The point is they could be very expensive and use alot of supplies and take up alot of space. Then if someone wants to put one in a ship, he's trading off room for weapons to be able to move undetected and quality for quantity as he'll probably never be able to build very many. And while he could move undetected, at some point he'll have to decloak to attack and then on a ship for ship basis be outgunned. You'ld spend more time building defenses for each planet, etc. And his special cloaked ships will more than likely be more for special missions than his main fleet because of cost/maintenance.

Phoenix-D · #5 December 13th, 2001, 12:14 AM

"And while he could move undetected, at some point he'll have to decloak to attack and then on a ship for ship basis be outgunned"

Two words: Star Destroyer. (planet killers would work too)

Phoenix-D

bearclaw · #6 December 13th, 2001, 12:30 AM

Wow, all these ideas and no time to create an "Ultimate Cloak" mod.....

Slightly off topic, but a comment that I feel I should make. Someone below mentioned about experaince affecting sensor abilites (fantastic idea, by the way!). I know this would be an effort to code into the game but Experiance should count for all sorts of things. Not just combat stuff. Sensors is a good example. Another would be ships of a high enough XP could do spot repairs to damaged systems. Say, for each 10 xp, a ship can repair 1% of damage. Done all the time in Star Trek and Star Wars too. In fact, come to think of it... it's a fairly standard Sci-Fi thing to do...

Beck · #7 December 13th, 2001, 05:50 AM

quote:
Two words: Star Destroyer. (planet killers would work too)

Yet if they were as expensive to build as I think they would have to be for any sort of balance coupled with the component for destroying a star which is already darn expensive you're talking something would decade or more to build. And with items that are or likely to be near the end of the research tree its something that would be appearing in the end game. They could lose the war long before one left spacedock let alone reach a star. He'ld have to send a fleet along with it because any systems I had important enough for you to waste a star destroyer on would have some sort of defenses on the star itself. Surely a player exercising such abilities in a human game would find himself a potential target of a coalition as other players band together or die one at a time. Just the threat that he could develop the technology could be enough in some games for players to gang up on them long before they have the capability to do as you suggest.