What is the problem with SE5?

[Atrocities]

You are all correct, what more can be said?

I too get extremely frustrated with SE 5 UI's lack of intuitiveness and generally believe that next to game crashing bugs, weak AI, and nescience bugs, the UI is the largest problem with the game.

[President_Elect_Shang]

The UI isn't just one issue that can have a *snap* you are fixed answer. The UI isn't all that bad to me anyway. I have certainly seen worse even if I have seen better. Now I'm going off track; if it is the UI and you have to take that as your one answer what would you suggest as a role model to base an improved UI from?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Atrocities said:
I too get extremely frustrated with SE 5 UI's lack of intuitiveness and generally believe that next to game crashing bugs, weak AI, and nescience bugs, the UI is the largest problem with the game.

That's it, but just one, what game crashing bugs lets start there!

[Uncle_Joe]

What you are asking is not really possible to tell IMO. Because there isnt any ONE 'mission-critical' problem with SE5 that I can see. If there were, that would make it much easier to correct.

The 'problem' with SE5 IMO is a combination of subtle things, many of which are touched on above. I am the one in my gaming group that decided to buy and try SE5 despite the poor reviews and less than glowing feedback from many SE4 fanatics. And when my friends ask me about it, I still cant put my finger directly on it.

The end result is that SE5 just doesnt seem 'fun' IMO. And that is about as subjective as you can get! Whether its the UI or bugs or unfinished features or poor AI or whatever I dont know...but the result is the same...I start a game, play for 15-20 turns, lose interest, save the game, and then not bother with it for a few weeks when I repeat the process again.

So, if you want to sum it up in one problem, I guess that would be it..."IMO, SE5 isnt fun at the moment".

[President_Elect_Shang]

That may be true for you but that won't help to make it fun in the future. What I would like to do here is start to understand the problems that can be addressed. Just saying it ain't fun isn't going to improve anything. Not that I am saying your opinion is less valid than a person who specifies a bug with examples. To you it is a valid point. That is also the problem I keep seeing and the reason for me starting this thread. I see people say it isn't good. I see people argue why others think it isn't good. But can any one of you name a specific thing? You don't go to a store and pick a new TV because it feels right. You pick it because the other TV's had something wrong that you didn't like. What is that wrong thing? Would it help if I opened this up a bit by saying you can name more than one thing?

[Slick]

There is no "one" thing. As said before there are numerous small things that kill the fun in the game. Here are some of my top examples (all of these have been posted about numerous times):

1) The UI sucks, specifically:
-- too many mousclicks overall
-- too many double-clicks
-- no drag & drop
-- can't see info you want on screens that you make decisions. 1 examples of many:
---- Research: what did I gain on the last couple of levels of this tech so I can determine if it is worth it to research another level?

2) The AI sucks. No explanation necessary. This is significant because most buyers of a game don't play multiplayer more than single player.

3) There are too many bugs, many of them still crash the game.

4) The "rate" or "pace" of the game seems too slow. SE:IV had it just about perfect to give that "just one more turn" feeling. SEV is far off the mark. Balance Mod is a great improvement, but, no offense, not there yet and still overshadowed by the other issues that can't be currently addressed by modding.

5) There are several game mechanics that are not fun:
-- retreating. A ship with even 1 less movement point can successfully and repeatably keep retreating from superior forces.
-- needing to constantly fiddle with research allocation. I don't know if most people do this, but I do because it bugs the crap out of me to lose research points when you spend more than required on the last level, which you can't know you are at unless you constantly check the data files or memorize them over time. BTW each turn research points change due to construction, happiness, etc.
-- the pathing routine sucks. I'm not sure what the fix is, but the "Stutter Step Dance" illustrates one problem with it nicely:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...1910&Forum=f23

6) A big one for me is not being able to have the game process a turn with the game minimized. Who in SE:IV didn't surf the web or do other things when the game was processing a turn. Not anymore under SEV unless you use crappy winDOHed mode.

7) Having to keep coming back to lists to get things done one at a time. Each time, based on the delay and the reordering, it seems the game recalculates the list. Very tedious. Only the Log remembers where you were at. One example: I'd like to select multiple construction queues and place them on hold with one click, and then later release the holds all at once.



I'm sure you get the idea; I'm not going to rant or make a huge list here, but, taken individually, many of these wouldn't make too much difference, but taken in total, the game just isn't fun.

I will probably upset some people here with the following, but please don't be offended. It appears to me that too much effort was spent making the game super-moddable; so much so that MM either consiously or unconsiously is expecting the modding community to improve the game for him, at least the AI. And this effort took away time from making a fun game. I know that many people find fun in modding and that's great, but it sure looks to me like SEV to date has been more an exercise in making a game engine, with little to no work on making a fun game - expecting the fans to make it fun by fiddling with all the modability. I think I personally might have preferred a less moddable game that was fun out of the box. Just my opinion here, folks, please don't take offense.


I know that everyone, myself included, WANTS to love this game and is giving it more than a fair chance. I know that there is every reason to expect that someday after lots of patches and a long time, many of these issues would be fixed. I give great credit to MM for unsurpassed support of games after release.

Bottom line is that SEV is not fun, but everyone mostly agrees that it has the potential to be great. Time spent waiting and dealing with the problems frustrates a lot of people so much that they may be lost forever. And the absolute bottom line is that a game that isn't very fun isn't very profitable.

* steps off of soap box and thanks people for not being offended *

[President_Elect_Shang]

Slick the first half of that was great. That is what I want to hear about so I can understand what is going on. Here is the two problems I had. First and foremost you speak of everyone and the majority. You aren't the voice of the crowd and I wish to avoid comments like those. Why? I want the crowd to speak up and add their thoughts. Second problem, what game crashing bugs? Tell me and show me them. I keep reading that the game is crashing but when? I haven't had a crash since something like pre-1.17(?or maybe 8?).

[President_Elect_Shang]

Now there is the winner. Thank you PvK! Oddly enough the ship system doesn't stall my very old computer; however, ships moving in asteroid filled systems does. One thing you said gives me a new thought. How would you implement the retreat feature if you could?

[Slick]

I'm not going to defend who I speak for; I speak for myself with reference to the extremely numerous comments I've read on this board. There have been several threads about this game (I had a poll or 2) where the majority of responses were hopeful, but not positive. Check out the big threads since the game was released last year.

As for bugs, I wish I could provide more, but when the game suddenly gives me an exception error or some such giving some memory address that is meaningless to me and goes to the blank screen that can only be closed with ALT-F4, it is kinda hard to provide feedback to get them fixed. I have to admit that the number of crashes under 1.20 has lowered significantly, but they still happen, they still seem to me at least to not be very reproducable, but once I get one, even if I load a previous saved game (auto save on) the game still tends to crash around the same point even when I try to figure out what the problem is and change numerous settings/orders/whatever.

If you are not experiencing crashes then you are lucky and/or not performing the same operations that lead to the crashes as other people; which again seems impossible to reproduce or narrow down. I sure don't have the time to meticulously bug hunt. At 3 months past (overdue) release and 20 versions past release, soon to be ~24, I would be embarrassed as a developer to still have hard crashes. Besides, this whole thing is a side issue; crashes are getting admittedly rare, but they do contribute to the overall frustration and lack of fun.

The key here is fun, "just one more turn", looking at the clock and saying "<EXPLITIVE DELETED>!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE I'VE BEEN PLAYING SO LONG!!!

SE:IV had all of these for me and SEV has none.

Lastly, PES, from your tone, it appears I have offended you in my last post even though I hoped not to. If so, I am sorry and it is not my intent. Please keep in mind that all opinions here on these boards are part of a terrific community who is just DYING to enjoy this game. Trolls die here from lack of food, so don't forget who the "good guys" are...

[Moriarty]

Without a lengthy discourse as to the nature of the problem what is the ONE problem you have with SE5? The one and only one that eats you up more than any others?

Simple answer: "death by a thousand cuts". That's the one reason. If you want a comprehensive list there are a bunch of threads that cover those.

Uncle_Joe: I remember them pointing to a poll that they conductd on THEIR SITE about wanting multiplayer or not. They said the results were overwhelmingly against. Well, if you ask on a SINGLE PLAYER ONLY forum, its not likely that you will terribly many MP players hanging around to participate in your poll, are you?

A valid observation, but look at it another way - If they're content with their current, single player market, and that market has no interest in multiplayer, why do they need to implement multiplayer? Sure they'll get more players but they'll also gain all manner of troubles (both from a design and support perpsective).
I did see the poll in question and multiplayer lost by a long way. Also I believe this was for an addon. Who better to ask what you want in an addon than the current players?