An idea for AI ship weapons

[Q]

Quite a time ago I proposed additional lines in the vehicle design, that would specify a certain techlevel at which the design would become valid or obsolete. Like that you could specify in your example that if you have APB level V technology the AI would no longer use the design with the PPB but a completely different design that is only used when exactely this tech level has been reached. I don't think this should be too hard to implement and you could then make completely different ship designs for the beginning of the game in contrast to later game stages.

[ 09 December 2001: Message edited by: Q ]

[Baron Munchausen]

Yeah, We've requested things like that in the beta forum. Dunno how difficult it would be to implment but it would sure be nice if the AI could be told to evaluate various weapons based on relative range, damage, or rate of fire instead of just using the listed choice in inflexible order. The sudden switch from level 5 or 6 of one weapon to level 1 in another always results in a period of weakness for the AIs fleets.

[Mephisto]

I hate when this happens. It would be a great addition to set the tech level before a weapon will be used. My poor Narns.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sinapus:
(Aside: I think the Narn got APB I in some ruins. Their research list doesn't start researching that stuff until waaay down the list.)

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[Rollo]

Yes, that would be convenient to have and make an AI modders life a little easier. I am not sure how easy that would be to implement.

However, something very similar can be modded already without any hardcode change. The answer is weapon numbers. Let's take the APB as an example. Currently it has weapon number 1 for all levels. If you'd break the levels apart a bit, say, give APB I-IV, APB V-VIII, and APB IX-XII weapon numbers 301, 201, and 1, respectively, the Narn (using weapon number 1) in the mentioned example would only use the APB, if they had level 9 or higher. You can introduce the APB in the mid-game at level 5 and skip the lower levels by using the 201. If you want to start with APB right away you'd use the 301. I have done something like this in Devnull Mod to break the high-energy weapons apart (Ripper-WMG). This way you can use Rippers without having to worry about them being "upgraded" to Incinerator Beams and you can also use WMGs without having to go all through the other weapons. You can even use Rippers and WMG at the same time, if you wanted.

Without any modding to the components there are some ways an AI modder can (more or less) prevent such things from happening, if he uses more ship designs. I assume the APB was meant to be used on the dreadnought and for full-tech games. So if the dreadnought had its own design (min. size 1000) and have the APB in the weapon list, while the normal design up to BB (max. size 800) didn't have the APB, then the battleship would still use the PPB. If the APB gets researched early enough to have a high level (maybe 9 or 10) before the DN is available, then the DN will start using a rather effective weapon right away. Another option can be "must have" abilities. For example, if Quantum Reactor is a must have for a design that uses the APB, then APB will only be used in the late game or at full-tech. Again, if the research takes care that several weapon levels of APB are researched before the Quantum Reactor, early levels of APB will not be used.

A combination of size restrictions and "must haves" can make an AI a little bit safer against unwanted tech either from ruins or from gifts of "benevolent" players. It can also be used to introduce a change of tactics and weapons for different ship sizes and use high levels of certain weapons right away (Ionic Dispersers and Null-Space, for example).

Rollo

[Captain Kwok]

I like that idea of breaking up the different weapons...

[Baron Munchausen]

Cpt. Kwok: If you mean giving each unique weapon type a unique family, I can agree. We've got some weapon families identified by more than one family number -- Electric Discharge/Lightning Ray and Plasma Charge/Hyper Plasma Bolt in Organics, for example -- while we've got cases of several distinct and different weapons, like Ripper Beam/Incinerator Beam/Wave Motion under a single family in "High Energy Discharge" weapons. Completely illogical. I'm playing a game now where the Eee have begun researching HED weapons and they're throwing DREADNOUGHTS armed with Ripper beams at me! They already had a range problem, I'm defending with missiles. Now it's a critical disadvantage. If the Ripper were a different family than the Incinerator beam and the Wave-motion Gun they just wouldn't build those dreadnoughts until they had a ranged weapon suitable. Now, if they had tractor beams in those dreadnoughts it might be a different matter.

On the other idea, though, I completely disagree. Customizing weapon families in this way makes them only usable by the paticular race you've customized them for. I think all of the neutrals use the APB as their main weapon. You'd have to go back and alter the design files for them to include both families of the APB so their designs would not be affected. And that's just the neutrals. This could cause chaos with other race AIs. No, one family=one distinct weapon type. I do see that the APB has a very wide range of effectiveness. Maybe it needs to be reduced to 6 or 8 levels and made an 'early to mid-game' weapon, with something more powerful replacing it at the end. The tech field is "Energy Stream WeaponS" -- a plural, after all. Hmm, then we need another "Energy Pulse Weapon" too.

[Phoenix-D]

"This could cause chaos with other race AIs."

It becomes a mod you have to change all the AIs for then, like Pirates and Nomads (or my techmod).

It might be worth looking into even with that.

Phoenix-D

[Rollo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
...On the other idea, though, I completely disagree. Customizing weapon families in this way makes them only usable by the paticular race you've customized them for. I think all of the neutrals use the APB as their main weapon. You'd have to go back and alter the design files for them to include both families of the APB so their designs would not be affected. And that's just the neutrals. This could cause chaos with other race AIs. ...

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I don't think it is that much of a big deal. For the neutral attack ships, instead of

Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 9
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 1
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 25
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0

you'd just use (going with numbers suggested below):

Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 9
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 1
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 201
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 301
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 25

something similar has to be done for all races.
Hehe, and just remember the "9" will mean "WMG only" .

Rollo

[Master Belisarius]

The work around that I did to fix this problem, is having different attack ship designs.
For example, look the Aquilaeian attack ships: they will use DUC cannons until research BC. When the AI research BC, start to use ships with Acid Globulae IV (this avoid the problem to have ships with useless weapons like Acid Globulae I and II).

[Sinapus]

In a game, I noticed that the Narn were using Anti-Proton Beam I's while having rather high tech. (Battleships with APB I's?!)

Upon checking the Narn's tech I found they had Phased Polaron Beam tech maxed out. I checked the datafiles and found that APBs are listed as the first pick for their weapons on attack and defense ships. Which reminded me of an annoyance I've found when making some basic mods here and there: switching to a new weapon type can get you a much weaker ship.

So here's my idea for things that probably won't get in in time for SE IV Gold but what the heck:

A 2nd flag for the weapon family pick, indicating the minimum tech level for that pick. E.g., if you pick Weapon Family 1 (Anti-Proton Beam) and have a minimum tech of 5, it should only add that weapon when you have that tech level.

Of course, this would only work so long as weapon families are grouped by the same tech area. I don't know if any have different technologies associated with them. Small weapons maybe. Maybe make the tech limit count the 1st tech requirement.

Any thoughts? ("What do you think, sirs?")

(Aside: I think the Narn got APB I in some ruins. Their research list doesn't start researching that stuff until waaay down the list.)

[ 09 December 2001: Message edited by: Sinapus ]