Frustration (balance)

[Phoenix-D]

"APBs are ok or maybe a little weak"

*weak*? I'd say they're overpowered, myself. Maybe the research cost balances it out a bit, but comparing them to any other weapon, the other weapon seems to get left in the cold.

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

Okeydokey. Here are the damage Ratings for various weapons, at max tech.

APB XII: 2.1 - 1.5, normal
CSM V: 0.8, seeker
MB: 1.75, normal
AMT V: 0.625, normal
QT V: 1.25, normal
PM V: 1.0 - 0.27, seeker
PDC V: 3.25, pointdefence, +70%
PPB V: 2.0 - 1.67, phased
RB IV: 2.5, normal
IB III: 0.9, normal, +10%
WMG III: 0.67, normal, +30%
TPC V: 0.375 - 0.188, Weapons only
ID V: 1.3, engines only
IPM V: 0.625, engines only, seeker
PN V: 15.0, planets only
NB V: 5.0, planet population only
GHB V: 1.21 - 0.33, normal
SD V: 7.5, shields only
DUC V: 1.33, normal
PC V: 1.33 - 1.0, normal, organic
HPB V: 1.67 - 1.0, normal, organic
ED III: 1.5 - 0.5, normal, organic
LR III: 2.0 - 0.5, normal, organic
SP V: 1.0, seeker, organic
AG V: 0.56, normal, organic
EAG V: 1.25, normal, organic
SC X: 1.17, skip armor, crystalline
HEM III: 0.917, normal, crystalline
TDB V: 1.0 (4.0), quad2shields, temporal
TS III: 0.33, skips all, temporal
TKP V: 1.75, normal, psychic
CW III: 6.0, warhead
MSD: 10.0, one shot, RuinsTech
MID: 5.0, one shot, RuinsTech
NSP: 0.4, skips all
CT V: 0.45, ships armor, seeker
SA V: 9.0, shields only, temporal
TC III: 1.2, normal, temporal, +10%
MSG III: 0.68, normal, psychic, +20%

Acronyms expanded in order:

Anti-proton Beam, Capital Ship Missile, Meson BLaster, Antimatter Torpedo, Quantum Torpedo, Plasma Missile, PointDefence Cannon, Phased Polaron Beam, Ripper Beam, Incinerator Beam, Wave Motion Gun, Tachyon Projection Cannon, Ionic Disperser, Ionic pulse missile, Planetary Napalm, Neutron bomb, Graviton Hellbore, Shield Depleter, Depleted Uranium Cannon, Plasma charge, Hyperplasma bolt, Electric Discharge, Lightning gun, Seeking Parasite, Acid Globule, Enveloping Acid Globule, Shard Cannon, High Energy Magnifier, Time Distortion Burst, Temporal shifter, Telekinetic projector, Cobalt Warhead, Massive Shield depleter/Ionic disperser, Null-spaceProjector, Crystalline torpedo,Shield Accelerator ,Tachyon Cannon ,MentalSingularityGenerator

[tesco samoa]

The item I always thought that was way outta wack was the temporal space yards.

Once you have them build them first on your planet and everything builds quickly after that.

Were talking facilities, ships and units.

[Zarix]

The balance mod idea might work pretty well. There should be some disadvantage when using weapons that fire every turn. Emissive armor would be pretty good answer early in the game, if it would work like it should. Later it wouldn't help because of the large mounts.

Another solution could be to make some weapons cheap to research but not very effective and others very effective but also very expensive to research. That way every weapon in the game would be useful at least for a while.

I hope we aren't going to balance the game to the point where only differences between weapons are name and picture.

[DirectorTsaarx]

quote:

---

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
The item I always thought that was way outta wack was the temporal space yards.

Once you have them build them first on your planet and everything builds quickly after that.

Were talking facilities, ships and units.

---

Well, that's the point. Taking the Temporal trait is supposed to be an advantage. (I'm a bit biased here, since I always take the Temporal racial trait). The other racial traits have a number of bonus-granting facilities, after all. I'd also like to point out that the Temporal yards require at least the 4th level of research in Temporal tech, which requires the first level of Temporal Studies. So that's 50,000 research points for Temporal Studies, then 50,000 points for first level of Temporal Tech & then 3 more levels of Temporal Tech, cost of which varies depending on tech costs chosen for the game. And then it costs 20,000 minerals to build (10 turns on a colony without population bonuses; twice as expensive as a standard space yard). So it isn't always best to build the temporal yard first; the first two levels of resource facilities build in one turn without bonuses or better yards, so why wait 10 turns to start producing? If you're planning to build monoliths, it may be better to put the temporal yard on first for the construction bonus, but other than that you'd have to think about how many turns of construction you really save versus time required to build the yard in the first place.

Anyway, I think the temporal space yard is the second most useful advantage for temporal trait. The temporal vacation service is the most useful, as it provides twice the happiness bonus of the generic happiness facility. Very easy to keep populations jubilant.

And finally, the other racial traits have items that seem unbalancing at first: the talisman for religious trait (weapons never miss); some of the organic weapons (particularly their seeker weapon); organic armor; the crystalline tech facility that reduces maintenance; the psychic subverter weapon (that one REALLY makes life difficult until you start using master computers). So, I think the temporal space yard isn't unbalanced once you compare it to the other racial techs. I will agree that the racial techs may be unbalanced by themselves - maybe they should be more expensive. Any other opinions?

[Q]

IMHO the temporal space yards and the special racial technologies are quite well balanced. If you take one of this special racial technologies you spend not only quite a few racial points but you must invest many research points to get this technology. So in the early games races with special technologies are rather weak compared to races that spent their racial and research points on standard technologies. Only in the later game the special technologies pay off, if the race survives to that point. In a crowded galaxy this may indeed be not the case. And in my experience races that have two special racial technologies are doomed in a game with low starting tech levels due to this factor.

[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: Q ]

[Gryphin]

While I realize this thread is about the balance between various SE IV game "components", I feel it is also necessary when weighing them to take into consideration the "Play Style" of the Human Players.
By Play Style I mean:
The over all nature of the choices a human player makes. Some players seem to promote a "conservative" play style, others a more risk taking aproach. I know I choose racial traits that compliment my thought process and priorities. (I won't say what they are as to avoid tipping my hand to the Honorable Growltigga). I expect others do as well. Exploiting these traits is then up to me. If I find I can't do it, I take my beating and try a different approach in the next game. "Live and Learn, or Crash and Burn"
To sum up: Some of the racial traits that may seem unbalanced are balanced by the play style of the Human Player. I have now idea how the Computer Players handle it.
I hope this makes sense. If not, please let me know.

* corrected typos *

[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: Gryphin ]

[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: Gryphin ]