Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to strong?

[Beorne]

This mean that now Hel and Van are balanced? And that the dev will not do anything to tune them down? Bad ...

[Edi]

Beorne said:
This mean that now Hel and Van are balanced? And that the dev will not do anything to tune them down? Bad ...

There is only so much you can do without completely breaking the thematics of those nations. Unfortunately, in SP they tend to become monsters since the AI is not properly equipped to handle a mass of glamoured medium-high to high defense unit armies.

I don't know what the perfect solution is, but there is a big distinction between balancing and overnerfing and it's a very fine line to walk.

Edi

[Yrkoon]

I've had to fight helheim/vanheim in a few games and yes they are extremely strong. Not unbeatable though.

In one game, I played as Niefleheim (the giants). I had a big army of high end giants (the ones with the longswords and shield + mail armor) vs an army of vanheim (cavalry + infantry, all glamour) and lost : my giants couldn't hit vanheim because of their high defense and although my giants resisted well, in the end, they lost.
So I changed tactics : I put a few sacred giants (the ones with frost aura) in my army of giants and put everyone on hold and attack. Next battle, the cavalry arrives first on my line of giants. The giants, with their relatively high defense, take very few hits from the cavalry charge and hold the cavalry. The long battle starts, like the battle I first lost. But this time, the frost aura of the giants is there. Basically, the combat took a long time and the aura froze the cavalry and the glamour infantry that came behind and my giants did a killing. I eradicated the vanheim army and lost very few giants.
That tactic of high defense troops + aura vs vanheim/helheim is of course limited to a few nation.

Otherwise, something that works very well too, and is quite cheap, is N1 mages with high defense troops: the N1 mages are scripted to cast eagle eye then tangle vines x4. Eagle eyes increases their precision, and tangle vines (area 1, so at least 2 cavalries) halve the defense of the vanheim troops . With eagle eyes, they almost always hit the first row off enemy troops, so your units can slaughter them very quickly.
I prefer tangles vines to vine arrow because it's area effect 1 (vine arrow is 1 unit), no save roll (vine arrow has to hit), lvl 1 spell (vine arrow is lvl 3) so it's available very early in the game and very effective.

[Beorne]

There is only so much you can do without completely breaking the thematics of those nations.

I think that rising cost or lowering def has very few thematic considerations ...

The fact I so stubbornly want to nerf Van is they were my favourite Nation, and now they are out from our games bacause unbalance.

[Edi]

I wouldn't mind a slight downawrd adjustment of their defense. It could also be justified by the Van not needing to train so much because their glamour gives them an unfair advantage over mortals and a consequent dose of arrogance.

Whether the devs agree with that is a different matter.

Edi

[KissBlade]

Beorne said:

I think that rising cost or lowering def has very few thematic considerations ...

The fact I so stubbornly want to nerf Van is they were my favourite Nation, and now they are out from our games bacause unbalance.

Van isn't that bad actually. There's been rare complaints about Van, and only in blitz usually.

Helheim/Niefelheim are usually the problem ones. Van just got lumped with them.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think that no matter what changes are made, there will be "not allowed in my groups games". But I consider it more based on "my groups games". If a group primarily plays one type of game (map size, game settings, number of players, victory conditions) then there will always be something that hits hard in that type of game. Therefore it gets left put bt people who play that type of game over and over and over.

But it shouldnt be balanced for that game. If it was then it would become imbalanced for other groups playing other games.

[Beorne]

FrankTrollman said:
The problem is that the Van aren't banned from your games because of unbalance. They are banned from your play group's games because of the perception of unbalance. Your particular gaming group is... very idiosyncratic. They do a lot of things that I don't agree with or understand.

So really, it doesn't matter whether the Vanir are balanced or not, they'll never be allowed in your games because the people in your group made a decision that they are overpowered and now no longer even consent to play against them.

Anti-Vanir tactics could be invented tomorrow that made the faction rank near the bottom and your group would still have them on the banned list. That's the joy of predjudice: it doesn't matter whether there's any reality to the opinion or not - the fact that further inquisition is refused on the subject means that the opinions can literally never change.

---

So yeah, Vanheim is good, but it's banned in your play group and it will never stop being banned in your play-group. And that doesn't have anything to do with anything that Johan did or will do in the future. Indeed, attempting to please your group on this subject is obviously a waste of Johan's time because the only way Vanheim could come off the banned list for your games is if it was shown to not be overpowered. And that requires playing against it, which you won't do!

-Frank

I think is not useful arguing about thre discrepancies between perception and inner truth, you know it's ALL about perception in every aspect of life. If you try hard you can find inner truth in religion, or perhaps in love. We're talking about DomIII.
We made up our decision (and I, who am the host, have a big influence in the process) after a set of games vs van. Not because prejudice (van/hel is among our favored nation) but because unbalance. I can assure you that a little cost increase and/or defence reduction would please me and re-open van/hel nations.
I don't think that any nation should need a so hardly customized "anti" tactics, it ruines my games. I prefer to developing a tematic nation rather an anti -heim nation. I like so. But there is a previous big thread full off better explained reasons by better english language people explaining Van overpower.
Btw, in the previous thread it seemed that all people (excluding two, at most) was in agree that Van was overpowered, and every once in a while this subject shows up.
So, what's your problem? You win with Van with you friends? I don't understand ....