Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to strong?

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We're beating a dead horse IMHO.
The combo of 20 def+glamour+fast+sacred+low res cost for a paltry 75 gold is a magnet for a high level bless (F9W9+)leading to a very unbalanced nation.
I've yet to find a way of countering Vanheim or Helheim before turn 25+ (if still alive). Last try was Arco vs Vanheim MA (F9W9N4), I get stomped and neither Elephants nor groups of astral mages scripted to Mind Burn and Paralyze had even marginal efficiency (considering battles opposing somewhat equal cost of troops).
Maybe Fire magic is more effective but I'm don't think it's enough before level 5.
When playing Vanheim the hardest fight I've had was against Machakan big sacred Black Hunters spiders (which had a F9N4 bless). But even then I beat them because they are much harder to produce en masse so they were overwhelmed (I had 80-some vans vs 30-35 spiders, because spiders cost 66% gold and 200% res MORE than a Van).
Worst thing is that when you lose you don't even have survivors as the ultra fast Vans wreak havoc in the rear...

[CharonJr]

Hmm, I have only played this vs. the AI, but could a heavy bless Mictlan (F9W9B4) pose some problems to Van in EA even in MP ?

Lots of small units with 2-3 attacks plus some devils for heat auras ?

IIRC those Vans just had a W4 or W6 bless, so W9 might have had a different result, but the Mictlan swarm might be able to overcome this higher bless, too.

CharonJr

[Kuritza]

Mictlan poses problem to anyone.
But think of it - to kill vans with lots of small units and devils, you must catch them first. They are stealthy and they just ninja your provinces (which have a terrible PD btw). Also, vanheim can wreak havoc amongst your jaguar warriors with bladewind and wind guided indie archers. What can your mages do against the van sacreds?
P.S.
To think of it, as Mictlan you have these2xblessed bats, it may be too much for the Van. Not in MA though, when blood magic is banned by Lawgiver.)

[Meglobob]

Kuritza said:
They are stealthy and they just ninja your provinces (which have a terrible PD btw).

I did this as MA Ermor with stealth shadow vestals against MA Mictlan, I had loads of lvl 1N druids, leading 15 shadow vestals stealthy raiding. The druids would bless the vestals with S9W9A4 bless.

However, MA Mictlan with is W9F9S9 blessed jaguar warriors simply created a load of 40 strong armies that countered my stealthy vestals. As soon as I took 1 he took it back. MA Mictlan also had enough troops left over to mount an offensive against me.

So why not do the same against stealthy vans? To every attacking strategy there is usually a counter strategy, the only problem is you have not thought about it yet.

[CharonJr]

Yup, stealth is a problem and Mictlan's PD is bad

Yup, Eaglewarriors ftw and later the summoned flying jaguars - Ozelots (sp?) - with some scared summons (bats and regular jaguars) till you get to them.

3 attacks with a F9 bless should be enough to hit even W9 Van's at least once and get rid of their glamor. Maybe I will try a little hotseat game vs myself later on and see if it works. But considering the cheap Mictlan sacreds I would put my money with them atm.

It might come down to Van raiding Mictlan's provinces while Mictlan stomps throught Van's provinces.

IMO Mictlan would win this one but due to the raiding would have fallen way behind in MP.

CharonJr

[CharonJr]

Yup, personally I have yet to see any setup/nation that can not be countered by a certain strategy, but as many others before me did, I will agree that the ###heim nations tend to have certain advantages.

Niefel with a N10E9 bless is pretty bad, too (70hp, 14hp regen, 20prot berserkers with cold aura IIRC). But due to their small numbers the mentioned above Mictaln swarm works against them or spells like soul slay, desintegrate or similar spells.

Basically I am more inclined to think that high dual/tripple bless strategies are too powerful since not all nations can use those effectively and most games are too short to make up for the early game advantage (which should often translate into a late game advantage as well) by having good scales.

CharonJr

[Baalz]

Hmmm, Mictlan is particularly vulnerable to raiding because of the spread out blood hunters. If you can only effectively blood hunt in provinces you've got either a castle or a permanent army stationed, it slows down your blood economy A LOT. I have yet to actually go up against a Van/Helhiem nation on MP (mostly because I focus extra hard on diplomacy with them), but it seems like moderate to heavy raiding would seriously impair non-MA Mictlan.

[Gandalf Parker]

So far the real difference I see is that the ****heim advantages are EASIER to use than many others. I think thats what puts them at the top of the finger-pointing chart. Not that they are too powerful but maybe just that it doesnt take much skill to take advantage of it. So it shows up sooner in new players games. The other good tactics need a more experienced player so the ****heim stuff puts a mediocre player on par with experts. That might be an imbalance but Im not sure what change would help it.

[CharonJr]

Personally I go for a fairly focused blood-hunting strategy most of the time (5 provinces with 3 B3+1 hunters in each), but I would have to agree that with mainly fodder as patrols the 3 High Priests would be hard pressed to stop a Van raiding party. But due to having B3 it might not be impossible (no manual here, due to this I don't know if there are some decent spells vs. Van in B1-3).

Guarding 5 provinces with enough units to repel a raid in addition to having some armies claiming Van provinces and hunting for its home province might be too much even with the cheap troops.

But this depends on the phase of the game and how it is progressing overall. The roughly 120 slaves I get this way while "wasting" 90RPs might not be that attractive all the time

But I will take a look at this in the testgame, too (EA).

CharonJr

[NickW]

Gandalf Parker said:
So far the real difference I see is that the ****heim advantages are EASIER to use than many others.

Well yeah they are easier to use. It's hard to use them wrong since they are superior units.

Gandalf Parker said:
I think thats what puts them at the top of the finger-pointing chart. Not that they are too powerful but maybe just that it doesnt take much skill to take advantage of it. So it shows up sooner in new players games. The other good tactics need a more experienced player so the ****heim stuff puts a mediocre player on par with experts. That might be an imbalance but Im not sure what change would help it.

I disagree. A more experienced player, who knows exactly how to take advantage of such uber troops, is really good to tear someone up with them.