Are heavy bless strategies the best ones ?

[Graeme Dice]

FAJ said:
So, why do people bother playing dominions if it is so formulaic? is winning MP games so important that people are willing to throw out the variety in the game to use the same duel bless strategies over and over?

If you are playing competitively, then play to win, and don't you dare complain when somebody else uses a more effective strategy than yours.

I think you have a pretty cynical outlook on the game.

Yes, I do, but that's because it's balance took a giant step sideways, and another small step backwards from Dom 2. The devs balanced the game in a manner that's similar to throwing wet pasta at a wall. Some of it will stick (which is equivalent to what gets used by players), but the majority just falls on the ground and is ignored.

[Dedas]

Well, when I'm playing, I try to pick up that pasta that other ignore and use it. Sometimes I'm surprised how well it actually works in combination with another piece none cares about.

For example, the "repel" ability that units with long weapons almost always get a chance to use seems to be something that people frown at. "Why buy these pikemen with lower damage when I can get these - though more expensive but holy - guys with broadswords instead?". Well, combine them with some simple spells like "Agony" and watch them work. And remember, you get a lot of these guys as they are much cheaper than most holy units; this wall of spears can actually rout a force much more costly, with better stats and blesses in combination with simple low level magic.
Agony = low morale
Low morale = More difficult to overcome repel
Possible outcomes in combat:
Totally repelled = no high level blessed augmented attack taking place
Overcoming repel = 1 hp damage on a now low morale unit
No repel = counter with more numbers and cheapo spells like earth meld/slime/entagle or why not extremely cheapo netters with spears?
Add to this ordinary attacks from the repellers + repellers outnumber the attackers = Less defense on attackers for each attack = more successful repels.
All those 1 hp damage + ordinary attack damage + low morale (agony) makes it more difficult to overcome repel - this makes them take a lot of morale tests. Combine them with some good fast units and/or holy blessed units attacking rear and you have a blast.
What if agony is resisted by all the units in its area of effect? Just throw it again and again and again. It is cheap.

Or why not iron/stoneskin/ethereal/etc one of your mages and send him/her into the fray with a group of units with guard commander command scripted. Let the mage cast a lot of those almost no fatigue close combat spells; they are extremely fatigue cheap, high damage, and some have a rather big area of effect. Use a lot of low magic mages why don't you? Take care of expensive blessed Vans with fatigue 5 burning hands. It does 13+ fire damage in the square next to the caster. 5 stoneskin + luck or whatever mages will take care of a lot of Vans. Why not combine them with repelling spearmen?

This game has way more possibilities than first meets the eye.

[thejeff]

Have you actually tried these tactics? Against an actual heavy bless strategy, not the AI?
Those sacred troops tend to be high morale and get a boost to morale from blessing, so they mostly ignore the repels.
And you tend to be fighting on a front, so you don't get that many more attacks on each enemy (10xtroops doesn't mean 10x attacks per round, just that you have more reserves for the front line.) So you don't hit(if high defense sacred) or hurt (if high prot sacred). (And of course if they're berserkers forget it.)

Try 10 W9F9 Van against 60-70 pikemen (roughly the same gold cost, but a lot more resources). I bet the pikes get slaughtered without a kill.

And mages used in the front line die. If your mage doesn't attack with his dagger (50% chance), he might kill a Van or 2 if he casts first. If he uses the larger close area effect spells (Shockwave, flame blast, etc) he'll kill as many of his own troops.
Even with stoneskin/luck, one good (AP?) hit, and he dies. Human mages just don't have the hp to survive.

Of course, some of the non-human mages can do this. They've got the stats to function as mini thugs. Sometimes those close combat spells work better than regular attacks.

[Covenant]

Sometimes you also get a nation with extremely weak Sacreds, and you just need to pass on the bless strategy. EA Ulm Steel Warriors, for example, are great fighters but poor chassis for turning into blessbombs. Using them to explosively expand is a very real strategy but much less so than several other nations. Depending on the MP game in question, several nations may simply be unable to do a blessbombs very well.

[Dedas]

I have tested my theories a bit. Not to the extent that you suggest however, but I will, because to me it sounds very plausible, something that could actually work. I got some experience with Agony and pikemen playing LA Ulm, and it really does work, taking out strength 9 provinces early in the game without taking more than a lost pikemen or two at most. I also fought a big AI army with some blessed troops - but that is the AI of course.

Tomorrow I will conduct some tests on the matter.

Anything that:

1. Adds fatigue to enemies (by more encumbrance for example). This will make it easier for the repelling units to repel, as you have to hit your target to be successful. Most pikemen have 10 in attack, and with a long spear that will make it 11. Every 10 points of fatigue on an enemy unit will make them lose 1 defense point. There are several cheap and also more expensive spells that will achieve this. Also, if they have, say 40 in fatigue (-4 defense) when they join in combat with the pikemen, they will surely get more from the prolonged combat repelling units can put up with low defense units with not extremely high morale. After some rounds they will get really worn out and they are ready to be slaughtered by the flankers or whatever.
Slime is another cheap spell that you can throw at the approaching enemy, as their defenses and AP will effectively be halved.
This tactic is mostly water based.

2. Add attack to the pikemen. The only spell I found that does this is berserk and its variations, it adds attack, protection and strength and decreases defense. And this is really something interesting because pikemen does not really need defense, as they can repel instead. It is of course good to have defense if you fail your repel. Maybe this is something to use on those high defense, high protection Arcoscephale Phalanxes. This only nature based as far as I can see.

3. Attack enemy morale. Here the level 2 blood spell Agony really impresses. You can actually make standard morale (10) flee at once if you use 5-6 slaves. This is not really needed though, when you have repelling units. Just to get their morale down to 10 is to make them vulnerable to repel (at least in my earlier games). So not many slaves are needed, use more wizards instead. Or, if you really have a lot of slaves you can of course widen the area of effect with just one. This is one of the thing that makes this spell so great, it is so dynamic.
This is an all blood based tactic of course.

So lowered morale means fear of the pikes, and that means more fatigue and lowered defense and more hits by repellers and so on. So you don't really need all of the above to succeed, but the more the better obviously - it will surely cut down any losses.

Lots of more to try, but right now I'm going to bed.

Cheers!

[Gandalf Parker]

Want some more? Here is my "I wonder if they tried everything" anti-Helheim list. It keeps growing every day. So far the best thing seems to be investing all of one days gold into PD on some important chokepoint. Of course that doesnt help the small-map blitzers.

Aim boosting spells and Bow of War? (volley of arrows, area affect?)

Awaken Sleeper for a strong commander, give him Thunder Bow (that uses strength boost) and Eye of Void (to see thru glamour). Does giving that Eye of Aiming make him blind or would he still be able to shoot? He has pretty good precision. Adding strength boosters would speed up the kill with that bow.

Do spells like Eagle Eyes help?

What about attacking equipment like the dancing trident or that dove?

Slingers broken up into many small units.

Snake Bladder Stick

Hydras

equipment: Wall Shaker

elementals seem to do well

Spirits of the Wood? Watcher?