Indep. Mages

[Methel]

Now now uncle, you're putting words in my mouth. I asked if others used those as researchers. I see the uses of those if you need the magic paths (as you might have learned if you read the post) But are the usual indeps. worth the price for a sub par mage, or is it better to save up and build another castle for making you're (usually) better national mages?

[Shovah32]

I tend to only use the site based indy mages as regular ones are generally pathetic.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im abit tossed back by comments like "complete waste of money" or "no point". It would seem to me that such extremes must refer to certain games. Personally I love finding certain indie mages whether they are site or poptype. But I wouldnt declare it as an absolute because I know that its also based on liking to play Solo and really large maps. I dont slow down to take advantage of it on an MP small-map blitz so there they would be worthless to me.

Side Thought:
Has anyone tested to see if poptypes are affected by game settings? I know that Era affects poptypes, and Im guessing that it affects sites. I would think that magic level of the game might affect sites. Im wondierng if setting magic high or low affects poptypes. Would low give you more infantry indepts and high give more amazons?

[Gandalf Parker]

Methel said:
Now now uncle, you're putting words in my mouth. I asked if others used those as researchers. I see the uses of those if you need the magic paths (as you might have learned if you read the post) But are the usual indeps. worth the price for a sub par mage, or is it better to save up and build another castle for making you're (usually) better national mages?

There are times when I really need blood or fire mages. I dont mind finding the amazons that give blood/fire mages. And the griffon riders have been known to be handy.

Not so much with the air/astral Amazons. Sometimes with the death ones. The water/nature not so much but I like building a temple there to get the combo mage/priest to move ahead with my armies, and the pegasus riders.

The indept shamans can be handy since some of them have stealth.

Of course all of this would be because of the nations I like to play as far as what is or isnt useful. But as far as researchers? I think I only would build a lab to get sages for that.

[Edi]

I actually like most of the indie mages. True that none of them can hold a candle to dedicated national mages with similar paths, but for e.g. nations that don't get nature picks, most indies are absolutely invaluable to get it started, since even a N1 mage can find a lot of important nature sites (such as the various Enchantress sites).

Of the Amazons:

• Garnets provide cheap blood hunters and can provide a blood magic jumpstart to nations without blood. Gryphon Riders are expensive and of limited use, but fire immune infantry is always useful. Especially if you fight someone who likes barbecuing your troops.
• Jade Amazons have the most powerful mages and can provide W2, N2 and D1, depending on random picks and absolutely kick-*** sacred cavalry with the right bless.
• The Onyx Amazons have H2 priests that have a 50% D1 and 10% E1 on top of that AND mountain movement, plus their sacreds aren't too shabby, they just tire quickly. The sorceress is a guaranteed Death searcher for non-death nations and rare ones can get D2, which can open forging options. Decently armored, speedy mountaineer infantry, which can be good in EA games.
• Crystal Amazons are the worst. They provide guaranteed astral and A1, which can help find some air sites (Silver Order if you're lucky) and increase air income, but that's about it. Lizards are more common and also give astral, so the only use is for air really. And speedy archers, which most indies aren't, but not comparable to woodsmen for movement options.

Druids, Lizards and the various Tribal shamans all have N1 and possible other picks that (if they manifest) may or may not be useful depending on national magics.

I expect poptype indies to be more useful in longer games and large maps, depending on site frequencies and difficulty of research.

[thejeff]

Any of the sacred amazon troops are really nice if you're playing a strong bless strategy with capital only sacreds.

Even if the units aren't as good as national sacreds, they're still more sacred troops.

(Though the pegasi are annoying. I couldn't get them to not shoot, even with attack orders. They'd fly up, rout/slaughter the first squad, then start shooting at the next target. Waste of a F9W9 bless.)

[Manuk]

Some loose toughts about indies.

-Lizard Shamans rock. They cast Arcane probing and curse, 2 Very useful spells.
-Wolf Tribe Shaman are 10% death-1 = Dark Knowledge = Access to death.
-Other tribes shaman are less useful because with 1 air or 1 earth you can't do much and the Lion or Jaguar tribe are crappy.
-Druids don't look too impressive at plain 1 nature but they have the side-ability to call god if you mass them.
-Garnet sorceress = blood hunting = cool (is there other easy way to expand on blood?).
-Jade sorceress can clam specially at const 6 with the water bracelet.
-The Onix tribe have the priestess at Holy 2 = Sermon of courage, and they also can get magic paths at a cheap price.

At magic 3 any 110 gold shamans are great researchers for the upkeep cost.

The site mages are totally random but they can be even better than your national mages. The lore masters have 3 totally random magics. Enchantresses are very useful with they elemental knowledge. I got the Shadow seer in one of my MP games (astral 3 and ethereal) and I got them thanks to the indy lizardman shaman casting Arcane probing (nation: Pangaea).

edited, thanks micah

[Edi]

Tribals & other poptype independent mages, magic and survival skills

• Druid - N1H1, Forest
• Lizard - S1N1, Swamp
• Bear Tribe Shaman - N1H1, 10% E, Forest, Mountain, Waste
• Wolf Tribe Shaman - N1, 10% D, Forest, Mountain, Waste
• Deer Tribe Shaman - N1, 10% A, Forest, Mountain, Waste
• Lion Tribe Witch Doctor - N1, 10% FEDN, Forest
• Jaguar Tribe Priest - N1H1, 10% FWSB, Forest
• Toad Tribe Shaman - W1, 10% N1, Swamp, Amphibian
• Jade Priestess - N1H1, 20% W, Forest
• Onyx Priestess - H2, 50% D, 10% E, Mountain
• Garnet Priestess - H1, 50% B, 10% F, Waste
• Crystal Priestess - H1, 50% S, 10% A
• Jade Sorceress - W1N1, 25% WEDN, Forest
• Onyx Sorceress - E1D1, 10% D, Mountain
• Garnet Sorceress - F1B1, 10% B, Waste
• Crystal Sorceress - A1S1, 10% S
• Horticulturist - N1, 20% WE
• Hoburg Priest - H1, 10% N

Judge for yourselves.

[Shovah32]

Out of all those the only ones i MIGHT consider would be amazon sorceresses

[Nix]

Whoa - never heard of the Toad Tribe.