LOS and spotting

[PatG]

MajorDisaster said:
... - and again I stress the Open Country.. forests, bushes and the like, fair enough, an experienced unit could hide a cruise liner.

Open country ain't that open. There is usually enough variation in the ground, patches of scrub or slightly taller grass to hide all kinds of nasties in a 50x50m area. Look at a chunk of real life ground, figure out what kind of hex it would be overall then try and find the hiding places for infantry, guns, tanks etc.

Half the effort of camoflage is not to make something invisible but to make it look like something harmless. I agree that the 88 flak on the fully rotating platform and the barn door gunshield is pretty damn obvious. The key here is to ensure that Ivan thinks it is a barn door from 1000 meters, asks "What is that?" from 500 meters and only figures out what it really is when well in range of the dug in protecting infantry.

[DRG]

A very big part of the problem for some players is the game scale. They see this......



and forget that it represents this....



And those green areas are fields not golf greens

Don

[MajorDisaster]

ha ha .. yeah .. but I can still see you ;-) That only underlines the issue - it's a chocking huge area of featureless grassland with a single ten foot tall lump in the middle of it. I guess you could cover it in foilage or disguise it as haystack - wouldnt stand out at all. Has anyone seen Monty Python sketch - "How not to be seen"? I've seen photos of camo'd AFV's deployed in woods and you wouldnt see them until you walked into them; I've read about Russian infantry lying motionless under carefully dug turf etc, but even very lumpy bumpy tufty grassland isn't going to hide an 88' and its crew.
I think the real problem for some players (me included) isnt so much scale, (though that admittedly takes some getting used to), but expecting the AI to deploy on reverse slope or in a forest or behind/in buildings etc,(anywhere sensible), but instead it parks a couple of flak guns in the middle of a huge field, (and we're not talking tall grass or wheatfields), and even stationnary infantry "cant see", (in the age of binoculars?). I mean, there's COVER and there's err... cover - where you really gonna put a large gun/tank? If a plain grassland hex actually means mini hillocks and furrows, then something not quite right with some of the terrain representation? The opposite problem is that aircraft seem especially good at finding tanks in forests or heavily built up areas where they'd be nigh on impossible to see at 150 mph in the first place let alone fire rockets at.
They're not huge deals but happen a fair bit. Mind you, other games Ive tried have a similar (or even more serious) issue especially with static AT weapons. Maybe that's a way to balance the game a bit? It has certainly made me value recon units - but maybe that's the point...

[RubberNeck]

In the old version (I have yet to see it happen in the new Win version) my most vexing spotting issue was to sit in the same hex as an AT gun and still not see it, even after it had been visible a turn or two before. It is almost stealth technology!

[evan]

Good point although it was much the same story with 3" motars and their crews.

Also where the scale is concerned; I understand 1 hex 50 metres/yards lets not get down to the difference in inches and millimetres; you are talking about two hexes being a football field ( in rough terms and regardless of what you call football in your part of the world) and a squad of 11; 13;or 15; depending on the game stands out like a sore thumb.

Secondly I suspect that MajorDisaster may have hit on the key to the problem. only the Ai troops are equipted with virtual binouclars while we have to make do with our limited eye from above? DRG, possible?

[dlazov]

even wrote:

a squad of 11; 13;or 15; depending on the game stands out like a sore thumb.

Not likely, I was sitting in M1A1 in a loaders hatch and I did not see the ****ers until they were 15 feet away, too much [censored] was happening and we were killing the big fish, I just happen to hear small arms on the side of the tank, popped up and [censored] there they were. All tankers hate infantry, especially infantry with AT weapons, the only thing we hate worse is [censored] jets with bombs, kinda hard to hide tank from a big jet with laser guided bombs.

Most infantry (at least the smart ones) don't want you to see them, until it's too late. I think it's called self-preservation, camouflage and ambush.

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.

[PatG]

On one excercise, I was leading a section sized patrol back in. Our last task was to sweep the company fall back position - part of which was an open area about 50x50m with patches of grass to knee high, a little scrub and a few fallen logs. A kneeling person would be completely visible. We were stopped by a "friendly" master warrant officer as we approached the area and were specifically and repeatedly ordered not to sweep the area. Under protest we went back to our lines. Of course the obvious happened - we fell back right into the enemy platoon with support weapons hiding in the open ground we were ordered not to sweep. 8 pairs of eyeballs saw nothing.

I was later able to return the favour when I was bartending at the senior NCO's mess.

I'm very happy I never had to play for keeps and very grateful to all those who have done so or who are doing so right now.

[DRG]

dlazov said:

Not likely, I was sitting in M1A1 in a loaders hatch and I did not see the ****ers until they were 15 feet away, too much [censored] was happening and we were killing the big fish, I just happen to hear small arms on the side of the tank, popped up and [censored] there they were. All tankers hate infantry, especially infantry with AT weapons, the only thing we hate worse is [censored] jets with bombs, kinda hard to hide tank from a big jet with laser guided bombs.

Most infantry (at least the smart ones) don't want you to see them, until it's too late. I think it's called self-preservation, camouflage and ambush.

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.

Thanks Don, do you think it might be possible for you to monitor both forums for us at all times and repeat this endlessly until everyone understands it

Don

[DRG]

evan said:

Secondly I suspect that MajorDisaster may have hit on the key to the problem. only the Ai troops are equipted with virtual binouclars while we have to make do with our limited eye from above? DRG, possible?

NO, the AI does not have any kind of spotting advantage (or arty or any advantage over a human player) whatsoever. We have told people this repeatedly but the minute the AI does something "Smart" out come the accusations that we've given the AI an advantage. The AI DOES have a number of DISADVANTAGES such as not being able to use a priority arty hex or the adjust fire capabilty that humans have.



Don

[PatG]

MajorDisaster said:
<snip> If a plain grassland hex actually means mini hillocks and furrows, then something not quite right with some of the terrain representation? </snip>

That has always been my understanding since I first played Panzerblitz in the 70's - open ground is NOT billiard flat despite the graphical representation.