Modding Idea List

VedalkenBear · #1 April 17th, 2007, 10:21 PM

Mainly it's in the pricing of mages, I've seen. There was _definitely_ a formula followed for it in Dom2, and there is almost certainly one in Dom3 (at least for the base game).

I feel like anything I have to say should be part of a test you should have to take before you're allowed to post a mod. A sample question would be:

1) What should the absolute minimum cost for a mage with a 3 path be? (An alternate form of the question: What is the cheapest mage in Dom3 with a 3 path?)

If you really want my input, I'll oblige you, but I tend towards brutal honesty.

Sombre · #2 April 17th, 2007, 10:31 PM

You sound like you could give some useful input and I know that I'd like to hear it. If you're worried other people will get upset you can just comment on my mods if you like ;]

However I think just referring to 'formula' of costing in Dom3 is a mistake. A mod nation could have very cheap or very expensive mages for a thematic reason without actually being over or underpowered in the game. For example if their starting city is awful, they're going to have a lot less money and resources in the early game. Or they might have very expensive mages but a site giving them a large amount of gold and resources in their start city.

VedalkenBear · #3 April 17th, 2007, 10:44 PM

Well, I look at the vanilla game (which the mods I'm referring to are supposed to fit in with) and I don't see that kind of issue. To take each of your examples:

1) 'Bad' starting castle type.

I believe Niefelheim has a 30 Admin Starting Castle, yes? I don't see them getting cheap mages by way of compensation for it.

2) Expensive Mages but site that makes money

A more intriguing example, yet one that doesn't seem very balanced, since there's no way to _make_ the player use the money from the site on the mages to 'offset'. A better way to do this would be to make two mages, one capital-only and the other not. The non-capital-only mage would just cost more.

And I did not say 'just referring' to formula. It is a guideline. However, you need to know the rules before you can learn when (and how) to break them. The classic example in the vanilla game is the Daughter of Avalon. If you take into account overall utility, she may be the most cost-efficient researcher in the game. (Philosopher is clearly better but is useless for anything besides research, has old age problems, and is capital-only for a nation that has many capital-only commanders.) She is definitely cheaper than 'the formula' called for. However, she's an arguable.

Most of the mods I've seen, the cases aren't even close to 'the formula'. I guess I'll hunt down each mod's thread and point out things.

Gandalf: I believe I have restricted myself in this thread to the mods noted as 'meant for vanilla' which, as Sombre notes, is by modder choice.

Sombre · #4 April 17th, 2007, 10:53 PM

I think your making a fairly big assumption, that mods which are marked 'balanced for vanilla' are actually made to 'fit in' with the vanilla nations. One of the big draws of modding is that you can do something different, not just make a version of Mictlan with different graphics, or renamed Ulm units. Taking Avernum as an example, it doesn't really 'fit' with vanilla nations; it's very different in a number of ways. I never actually made any attempt to make it similar to the vanilla sides.

What I did /try/ to do was make it so you could play it alongside the vanillas and not be hugely over or underpowered. Any constructive feedback helping me do that is appreciated.

I gave you two random examples of how mods can be balanced differently. These methods may not appear in the vanilla game, but when you're dealing with mods you have to accept they aren't always going to follow 'patterns' set out by vanilla. The thing to aim for is to stop them being hugely over or underpowered (worse than the worst dom3 nation or better than the best).

VedalkenBear · #5 April 17th, 2007, 11:05 PM

Sombre, that is the exact issue I am discussing. I am concerned that a nation is overpowered or underpowered relative to the vanilla nations. Not that they are necessarily a 'slightly modded vanilla nation'. Basically, when I see 'balanced for vanilla', I think to myself, "If someone played this in a MP game with others, would anyone call foul?"

Avernum is quite a nice mod, from what I saw. I'm not sure if I caught all the parameters (the Vashnai units did not seem useful enough to justify their presence), but I was able to put together a credible game or three with them. (Specifically, I used their lizard infantry IIRC to expand.) Avernum may need a bit of tweaking, but its _premise_ is sound.

What I'm referring to is something more like this. You can generally get about 6 research out of a 150g non-sacred mage (in a magic-neutral domain). Well, if someone comes out with a mod that has a 120g sacred mage that generates more research than that, the first thing I do is try to find what deficiency that is making up for. If I can't find one, then I question the wisdom of that decision.

Am I making myself a bit clearer? Sorry for any confusion.

Sombre · #6 April 17th, 2007, 11:14 PM

Just making sure we're on the same page. You could have a nation that has a 120g sacred mage who can research up a storm, but they might also start with little gem production, have poor sacreds, rampant old age problems and be crippled by a low admin startfort.

Sometimes you have to consider the nation as a whole. That's harder than following a forumla. On the other hand, following a rough forumla does make balancing a lot easier.

I think we agree on what needs to be done for balance, so I'd be happy for you to comment on my mods. Other people might not see eye to eye with you, buyt they're putting their work in a public forum, so I think it's fair to comment on theirs too. Look foward to seeing what you have to say :]

VedalkenBear · #7 April 17th, 2007, 11:18 PM

I'll look into it. I think I'll refrain from talking about others' mods, since I'm already getting comments... ah well.

Gandalf Parker · #8 April 17th, 2007, 10:33 PM

Lets not debate if a mod is balanced to vanilla or not. There is plenty of range in that term "balanced". If a mod maker had a balanced nation in mind then thats what it should be taggged. If they purposely created a super nation (for AI use) then they will say so. IMHO

Sombre · #9 April 17th, 2007, 10:43 PM

Well I've only marked those in the modlist with a 'yes' for 'balanced for vanilla?' if the modder indicated that they were going for that balance. So it would make sense that those are the only ones worth discussing vanilla balance for.

I haven't seen any super nations designed for the AI apart from 'AI Mictlan' which I made and no-one downloaded. So not sure which mods you're referring to.