LOS and spotting

[dlazov]

even wrote:

a squad of 11; 13;or 15; depending on the game stands out like a sore thumb.

Not likely, I was sitting in M1A1 in a loaders hatch and I did not see the ****ers until they were 15 feet away, too much [censored] was happening and we were killing the big fish, I just happen to hear small arms on the side of the tank, popped up and [censored] there they were. All tankers hate infantry, especially infantry with AT weapons, the only thing we hate worse is [censored] jets with bombs, kinda hard to hide tank from a big jet with laser guided bombs.

Most infantry (at least the smart ones) don't want you to see them, until it's too late. I think it's called self-preservation, camouflage and ambush.

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.

[PatG]

On one excercise, I was leading a section sized patrol back in. Our last task was to sweep the company fall back position - part of which was an open area about 50x50m with patches of grass to knee high, a little scrub and a few fallen logs. A kneeling person would be completely visible. We were stopped by a "friendly" master warrant officer as we approached the area and were specifically and repeatedly ordered not to sweep the area. Under protest we went back to our lines. Of course the obvious happened - we fell back right into the enemy platoon with support weapons hiding in the open ground we were ordered not to sweep. 8 pairs of eyeballs saw nothing.

I was later able to return the favour when I was bartending at the senior NCO's mess.

I'm very happy I never had to play for keeps and very grateful to all those who have done so or who are doing so right now.

[MajorDisaster]

I've never seen billiard flat "natural" fields either and absolutely agree that infantry and low profile weapons can be hidden/blended just about anywhere, those little furrows & burrows youre talking about. But a soldier is flexible, (bends to fit), and very small when prone, so can do that.
My point is about TALL hardware - if the landscape is devoid of buildings, trees, incredible tall grass, banks, holes or any other significant feature, you havent got many ways of disguising a medium tank, AA gun, howitzer, ... etc. And if a Sherman is disguised to look like a haystack etc, then you would in reality be able to see "the haystack", then decide what to do about it, which of course is beyond any games similar to this (thankfully). A single haystack in the middle of an area of uncultivated land might just arouse a little curiousity?

This says bit of video says so much ... cracks me up everytime :-)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...70357062149413

[DRG]

dlazov said:

Not likely, I was sitting in M1A1 in a loaders hatch and I did not see the ****ers until they were 15 feet away, too much [censored] was happening and we were killing the big fish, I just happen to hear small arms on the side of the tank, popped up and [censored] there they were. All tankers hate infantry, especially infantry with AT weapons, the only thing we hate worse is [censored] jets with bombs, kinda hard to hide tank from a big jet with laser guided bombs.

Most infantry (at least the smart ones) don't want you to see them, until it's too late. I think it's called self-preservation, camouflage and ambush.

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.

Thanks Don, do you think it might be possible for you to monitor both forums for us at all times and repeat this endlessly until everyone understands it

Don

[dlazov]

Meaning....


Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.



and

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.


and

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.

and so on until


Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.

rinse

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.


repeat

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.

and wash

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.

[dlazov]

I'll, try my best.....

[DRG]

dlazov said:
I'll, try my best.....

Actually it was the bit about not seeing the infantry until they were 15 feet away and how "Most infantry (at least the smart ones) don't want you to see them, until it's too late." that I found the most informative

However, "adjust the preferences if you have a problem" works for me too

Normally "discussions" about game systems tend to involve people who have never been in a tank, in combat.

What was the "terrain" like in the incident you described ? Desert scrub ?

Don

[MajorDisaster]

Does that mean you can change the preferences then ? ;-)
Hey, I think a lot of the (subjective) comments on here are observations on how the game plays "out of the box, set to default". Isnt subjective comment what forums are about or have I got that wrong? The fact that you can tune it to suit is wonderful, (especially for this game genre), but I guess I have felt that's kind of "cheating" when I play any sort of game? Anyway, Im seriously and sadly engrossed in a campaign on the Russian front, with the current battle on a knife edge, so far I'm from thinking the game is broken, (wouldnt waste my time if it was... ) :-) Hell, I only got 13 tanks in my core and the ground is full of T34, rumbling under Katyusha barrage and the air full of Shturmovik - gulp!! - it's gonna be a long day...

[evan]

Didn't mean to ***** and put people offside; and if I have I apologise.

Likewise I understand the infernal lack of visibility from afv's and don't have a problem with that but rather the situation were a MG or gun crew is stationary for seven or eight turns looking across a valley and still takes three or four turns to work out which hex a enemy unit has opened up from.

Also I would again like to thank the people that reply to my posts; always helpful; and would also like to thank the people that have developed this game to the point where it is both frustrating and addictive.

[badger45]

evan,

88 mm guns in the open... I set up in editor a sample position (meeting engagement) of 4 guns in the basic flat green terrain and advanced against them german infantry platoon (one hex per turn, the slowest speed at which they are best spotting). They discover the 88s at 400 to 350 metres. Flak gunners discovered the infantry at the same time, but too late to open fire (though I ordered them to fire on anything within 1000 metres).

Now take russian rifle platoon. First russian squad was discovered at 500 metres. two others at 450 m, last one at 400 m. Advancing russian rifle platoon still sees nothing no wonder). Two turns pass, before the best experienced squad (exp 60) saw suddenly 3 of 4 88s at range of 300-350 metres. He was the last one that moved that turn, the previous guys under exp 60 were still blind, though they are only 300 metres from the guns. Moreover, I ordered the gunners not to fire until 50 metres in order to avoid demasking effects of firing.

And now, take russian scouts and do the same. At 300 metres they discover all four guns, while the germans stilll see nothing. Just out of curiosity I continued the advance of the scouts. They were discovered at 200 metres two turns later.

What is my point:
1] spotting the barn 88 is not difficult, if your troops have the same experience and size 1 (normal squad, not conscripts or cavalry).

2] spotting the barn 88 with size 0 units (scouts and smaller than squad units) is not difficult even when you are exp 55 and the enemy 75.

Things that ruin your spotting -
a] move more than one hex per turn
b] scout with big units
c] use unexperienced troops

First two points make you easy to be spotted (and if you get under fire from unspotted enemy, you are not good scout).

The second helps your spotting. The more experience, the further you see. (German Para scouts can spot the 88 at 450 metres). Important thign is, that even the runnig conscript will spot the 88 at 250 metres! Therefore, there is no way to easily hide the 88 in the open and the game comes here very close to reality, judging from my experience.

Years ago, we had to hide D-30 howitzers used as battalion antitank reserve - you just have to dig half meter in the ground. In case of 88 may be a meter or so. After that the gun is just about meter above terrain. Meter at 500 m is the same to spot as 1 mm at 50 cm range.

Therefore I think, the game is just OK. If anything, it spots very predictably and quite well compared to reality. I witnessed a motor rifle squad digging into ground hundred meters away from battery of D-30s, not knowing we are there (though we were not precisely in the open, but at the edge of forest).

regards,
badger45