Mod: Jomon, Broken Swords v0.8 RELEASED

[VedalkenBear]

Almost certainly EA, maybe Middle. If you wanted it to 'match up' with the similar time period in Tien Chi, it would be middle. (It corresponds to Tang period China.) We'll see.

And, really, you could have gunpowder-type weapons in early age Tien Chi and Japanese stuff, since it actually did exist.

The main issue with Japanese nations is that if you have dismounted samurai, you really should also have guns. Guns are basically what caused the samurai to dismount.

It's kinda funny that LE Tien Chi is very close to what early feudal Japan would be like. It would just have a smaller emphasis on death magic.

[Sombre]

I didn't think they had special breeds of horses like those used by the mongols and other steppe tribes, so I'm guessing they couldn't have been so cavalrific.

I also wasn't aware China or Japan had any useful gunpowder weapons before the Europeans showed up and in Dom3 none of the Euro style nations have reached the gunpowder age. Their most advanced military tech seems to be pike formations.

I know I wouldn't mind seeing a gunpowder using early or middle tienchi varient though - a fusion of fire magic, fireworks and science. A few oddball military thinkers through the centuries have invented sort of one shot flamethrowers before.

[VedalkenBear]

Oh, they didn't have firearms. They had mre siege-oriented gunpowder weapons (cannons, etc.).

And yes, the original samurai were mounted archers, with swords taking a major backseat to bows as far as importance goes. (This was mainly because the height of military technology pre-gunpowder was the mounted archer.) I can't tell you how special the horses were, except that the horses raised in the Kantoo plain (modern-day Tokyo) were larger and hardier than any others in Japan, and thus the Minamoto 'clan' (which was based there) had a 'leg up', as it were, against the other cavalry.

Really, in many ways the 'gentleman samurai' wearing haori, hakama, and daisho is an anachronism, as the samurai weren't really that way until the Tokugawa period (1600 AD+, after the Sengoku Jidai). You don't really see a real emphasis on bushido _and_ unmounted Samurai except in fictionalized accounts (like the Seven Samurai), or in the _very_ rare violent disturbances of the Tokugawa period (like the Chushingura).

[HoneyBadger]

Hm...This whole discussion gives plenty of fuel to my idea that there should be more than 3 ages. Also, I'm thinking that it would be very nice if you have spell-lists that-while shared by more than one nation-are not universal. You could then have nations influencing other nations and adding spells to their list-kind of like gunpowder being brought over to Japan by the Portuguise/Dutch.

If the Jomon nations traditionally have never had, say, most of the Evocation spells, and by Late Era, suddenly they do, that would be an interesting facsmilie of gunpowder.

I'd really like to have the ability to take away from the main spell list, but I'm not sure if that's fully doable yet.

I've been thinking lately, what the world would be like today if gunpowder had never been invented. Maybe old Genghis Khan slaughtered a few different Chinese and tore down a different town or two in an alternate universe, and in the process nipped gunpowder in the bud.

You'd probably have things like steam-tanks, flame-throwers, and ofcourse advanced crossbows and the like, but warfare would probably have stayed with an emphasis on melee combat, horse-calvalry, and the longbow/crossbow for a much longer period of time. Personal armor would be much more advanced, since it wouldn't have to stop a bullet, but it would have to make your knight more surviveable, which means it wouldn't have a long period of obsolescence. Chemistry itself would probably be a lot more primitive-mustard gas might be on the "cutting edge", and used on a regular basis-as horrible an idea as that is. Ofcourse, it wouldn't be long before gas-masks caught up. Wars might also last for hundreds of years, since they wouldn't be nearly as dramatic or intense.

Eugenics would have probably both caught on and stayed on, as the ruling powers sought to breed more powerful, longer-lasting knights, while democracy and communism would have both suffered (communism probably more than democracy, since atleast some of the nobility through the church would have heard and admired of the Greek example, but then Russia wouldn't be so backwards, compared to the rest of Europe, and that might take the pressure off a bit.). I could definitely see communism popping up in other places than Russia though. Ofcourse, Nazi-style Fascism, with it's xenophobic hatred doctrines and willingness and ability to breed "supermen" would have gone over a lot easier and smoother. The French revolution probably would have still happened, but in America, the colonists would have required a lot more support from their home states, and the Indians wouldn't have had nearly as much of a disadvantage, and would probably still be powerful, especially the Iroquois Nation-both united and in a position to trade with the Europeans. South America ofcourse would still be ruled by the Aztecs, Incas, et all. China itself would probably actually be *more* powerful militarily without the invention of gunpowder-but then, their culture would be the most affected by the loss of fireworks.

Just to bring it back on topic, you might eventually have seen Europe settle into the kind of complacent society Japan was in, in the 15-17th century, only influenced by the ideals of chivalry, rather than the ideals of bushido.
It might not be as good as we'r starting to have it now, but then again, it might not be that bad, either.

If you just took away gunpowder and it's by-products (fireworks and all the centuries of chemical research and safety-practices that goes along with them, black powder, possibly the internal-combustion petrolium engine, probably dynamite, maybe sulfa-drugs) you'd have a much different world, different societies, and a very different battlefield.

[VedalkenBear]

... mm, I think your idea, Badger, suffers a bit from reading a bit too much into things.

For one thing, Japan in the 15th-16th centuries was _anything_ but complacent (that's the Warring States period). Now, if you were saying that Europe in the 15th-17th centuries would be complacent like Japan was in the 17th-19th centuries, that would be better. However, the Tokugawa shogunate focused _all_ of its energy into preserving itself, and did so by numerous methods. The one I am most knowledgeable about is the _sankin kotai_, or the system of alternate attendance. I really wouldn't call Japan 'complacent' in that period, even so, so much as 'peaceful'.

And I'm not sure, but I do believe you can mod a 'base' spell into a national spell, so that only certain nations have access to it. If you can do this for one spell, you should be able to do it for all of them.

And, really, if you took away gunpowder, you would also have to take away not only the consequences of it, but the steps that led to it. And that, really, is impractical to describe from our current standpoint.

[HoneyBadger]

Actually, VedalkenBear, and I mean no offense when I say that I think you're the one reading a little bit too much into my post .

It was just an idle thought-I wasn't trying to lay out 500 years of history as would occur without a crucial piece of technology, I was just speculating-brainstorming, if you will. If I'd been doing more, I would have tried to give sources and references, and I certainly would have researched more into it. I really was just aiming for conversation-and just maybe to get people who read it thinking in new directions, if possible.

And you're right, "peaceful" is a much better term for most of what I meant than "complacent". I just couldn't think of a better term at the time. I meant "complacent" in that they were happy with their culture as they had it, and were satisfied to keep it as it was-ofcourse, as you say, doing their very best to keep it stable-but not that they were apathetic or lazy about it.

[Sombre]

So anyway,...

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