Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[B0rsuk]

I strongly disagree. Boosting everyone else (or just some weaker nations) is a baad idea.

If you simply tone Vanheim down, you're changing balance of Vanheim vs C'tis, Vanheim vs Machaka, Vanheim vs Marignon, Vanheim vs Bandar Log.... In short, Vanheim vs EveryoneElse.

BUT if you decide to boost, say, Bandar Log and Ulm, you're changing over 2x more balance relations. Bandar Log vs (EveryoneElse-1), Bandar Log vs Ulm, Ulm vs (Everyone Else-1). Geometric scale ! Why balance several things at a time if you could safely balance just one ?

Meglobob: this is very interesting, because some people argued Vanheim/Helheim should rule early game because they supposedly don't have late game.

[Teraswaerto]

I don't see how anyone who understands anything about Dom3 could claim they don't have end game power. Just look at their magic paths: earth, air, death! Those are some weak paths, right? Sure they are.

Also, the raiding power of their stealthy troops never goes away.

[Baalz]

1) Super strong early expansion
2) Very strong research- hammers + skulls + quills
3) Very strong combat magic
4) Strong death mages for powerful summonings.
5) Unmatched hit and run capabilities
6) Assuming a F/W bless they've got a strong mage in 5/8 of the magic paths
7) Even a taste of blood magic if you're feeling frisky

Yep, sounds like the recipe for a weak end game to me.

The only thing worse than early game Helhiem is late game Helhiem.

[Xietor]

Does anyone else think that giving pikemen a 1st strike, high attack against mounted units would help balance the vans somewhat.

The 1st strike of the pike against mounted units has been used in other strategy games, and is sound realistically. A charging unit into a long pike IS going to take some damage most of the time.

Thus the pike gets a very high attack bonus and 1st strike(only against mounted units). I also think the defense of the mounted unit should be lowered against the pike because the pike is going to hit the horse not the rider.

It is just hard to see the 1st wave of calvary charging into a row of pikes and avoiding injury. Several horses would be severely injured.

And I guess not just pikes, but long spears would also achieve the same result. Maybe any sharp weapon of length 4 or 5?

[HoneyBadger]

EA Tien Chi beats Helheim easily, with it's pikes and chariots eliminating the glamour pretty easily, and the warriors of the 5 elements destroying it's special troops. Add in Chi's other troops, like their decent archers and heavy glaive-users, and it's a slaughter.

I've done it consistently over quite a few games.

As far as weakening Hel/Van instead of strengthening other nations-well, the ones that need strengthened are weak to begin with, and not just against Hel/Van.

I'm not saying boost Caelum, Niefel, T'C, Lanka, etc. I'm talking nations that have a hell of a time beating Helheim OR Niefel OR Caelum OR T'C, like EA R'lyeh for instance.
Sure, it's easy to weaken Hel/Van-a lot easier than it is to strengthen half a dozen nations-but EASY isn't always BEST, and Hel/Van are good nations, they're internally balanced, and they work for a lot of different styles of play.

You may have an easier time of cutting the legs out from under Hel/Van than lifting up and fixing up the least competitive nations in the game-and you certainly can tell yourself that you're doing the least amount of so-called "damage" to the 'holy internal balance' of the game, but the end result will be a game which isn't as fun to play-and that's the bottom line, fun. It's more trouble to fix a nation, but it's also a really good opportunity to make that nation more FUN to PLAY.

Plus, if done really well, it should firm up the overall balance of nations in the game.

And those things makes the game overall better, rather than worse.

[Meglobob]

HoneyBadger said:EA Tien Chi beats Helheim easily, with it's pikes and chariots eliminating the glamour pretty easily, and the warriors of the 5 elements destroying it's special troops. Add in Chi's other troops, like their decent archers and heavy glaive-users, and it's a slaughter.

Is this SP or MP? Bet its SP...won't work in MP.

[Velusion]

Meglobob said:

Is this SP or MP? Bet its SP...won't work in MP.

I can't imagine it being in MP either.

[B0rsuk]

Is this just me, or Vanheim/Helheim has very heavy infantry by Early Era standards ? Not only that, but the infantry is stealthy, has high defence and magic resistance ?
They're perhaps ok for middle era, but compared to other Early units they're like soviet tanks.

I can't completely verify it now because I've never been a big fan of *heims and I don't feel like creating new game just sto check....

[Velusion]

B0rsuk said:
I strongly disagree. Boosting everyone else (or just some weaker nations) is a baad idea.

I think the main thing people worry about is taking away the unique powers that the heims have. I'm all fine with leaving them as is... just increase the gold/resource cost.

B0rsuk said:
Meglobob: this is very interesting, because some people argued Vanheim/Helheim should rule early game because they supposedly don't have late game.

There is a certain white wizard here who likes to answer every issue with "but it all depends on how big your map is!". In the past I've let that go, because it sounds like a good point. However I'd like to debunk that thought now. The rate at which the heims can grow is astounding. The extra provinces they gain in the early game more than makes up for any losses in the scale department - plus more provinces = more gems. So in the mid/late game they have a very large empire with a superpower pretender and no real negatives.

But IMHO the biggest reason to tone them down is that it is NOT FUN to get creamed by them so early in the game. It doesn't matter how you design your nation, the vast majority of them cannot even hope to stand against an early attack by the heims and it is in their best interest to kill you quickly.