Dud units / monsters / summons

[Dedas]

I really would like to participate in a mega game! Please start one for us Gandalf.

[Velusion]

Teraswaerto said:
Are there MP games played on 1000+ province maps? Where could I find one?

*shudders at the thought of the micromanagement needed for such an massive late-game*

[Teraswaerto]

I expect at those province numbers micro is no longer possible, or the turn timer is one turn per week or something. Learning to manage time would be very important.

[Gandalf Parker]

I figured on the fast-game folks enjoying the early game. Its only 20 provinces per player if all of the nation slots are filled, 25 per if the known nations are filled (21+21+18 I think). Then when they start feeling the drag they might turn their nations over to the MM folks by arranging a replacement or asking for subs. Then later in the game if their nation got knocked down they might ask back into it when it has massive research.

Here is the mod if you want to try it solo. Playing ea Ulm against ma Ulm and la Ulm is fun also.
http://www.dom3minions.com/RandomMaps/SingleAge.zip

The scores.html would look something like this
http://www.dom3minions.com/games/PvK...ia/scores.html
altho I have made improvements such as naming the nations with their age so you can tell early Ulm from late Ulm, and giving the empty slots at the end some generic names.

[MaxWilson]

quantum_mechani said:
That scale somehow magically balances also seems a bit of a fallacy. 250 infantry beat 100 light cavalry just the same as 25 infantry beat 10 light cavalry. The only major impact of really large maps balance wise is that eventually your options plateau as you run out of research to do. This situation makes balance even more necessary as you have one fewer way to 'niche' options.

Map scale has at least two other effects. 1.) Capital-only units become a smaller proportion of your forces. 2.) Map movement (including M/F/S/W Survival) becomes more of a factor in successful force concentration. Air/Astral magic probably becomes more important, too, for paratrooping.

I only play SP, and I haven't ever actually played a game all the way to completion on a 250-province map, but scaleability is always at the back of my mind. I simply don't have any fun with a nation whose best mages are all capitol-only. The pending nerf to Svartalfs has completely turned me off Helheim, for instance. On the Silent Seas map, though, it wouldn't matter.

-Max

[quantum_mechani]

MaxWilson said:

Map scale has at least two other effects. 1.) Capital-only units become a smaller proportion of your forces. 2.) Map movement (including M/F/S/W Survival) becomes more of a factor in successful force concentration. Air/Astral magic probably becomes more important, too, for paratrooping.

I only play SP, and I haven't ever actually played a game all the way to completion on a 250-province map, but scaleability is always at the back of my mind. I simply don't have any fun with a nation whose best mages are all capitol-only. The pending nerf to Svartalfs has completely turned me off Helheim, for instance. On the Silent Seas map, though, it wouldn't matter.

-Max

Those are valid points, but very little of balanceing that gets done (at least with CB) changes those things.

[Sir_Dr_D]

quantum_mechani said:

And that aside, few of the thing mentioned here fall into the extreme 'bite me' catagory. Things like Wrath of the Sea, Light Cavalry without lances, Amulet of Vengeance, Call Lesser Horror, Bonds of Fire, Dragon Master, Iron Pigs, Serpent Cataphracts, Bell of Cleansing, The Sphinx, Son of the Sun & Co., etc.

You have Serpent Cataphracts listed as one of the extreme 'bite me's. I don't find them that bad.If you compare them to the independant knight, the knight has an extra point of defense and attack, but the Serpent Cataphract is tougher and ,because it turns into a regular lizard after, you have to kill it twice. The knight due to the lance has a greater damage potential for the first strike, but the Serpent Cataphract has slightly higher damage for all strikes after that, and they have lower encumbance. But then it is true that knights are cheaper, and they are faster.

And themetically, Pythium is supposed to have lower calibre calvary then other nations. Their strength is their infantry. Still the Serpent Cataphracts are only slightly inferior, and if you are unable to mass up independent knights, I find your army is better with them then without them. There is just times when you need faster troops.

If I was going to balance them I would simply give them one thing, swamp survival. (and i would consider a small poison resistance) I wouldn't want to change either their cost, or their stats, since the stats do seem to match there description. But swamp survial almost seems like something they should have, and would be enough to give them more of a use.

QM, I am curious on your take on it.

[quantum_mechani]

Darrel said:

You have Serpent Cataphracts listed as one of the extreme 'bite me's. I don't find them that bad.If you compare them to the independant knight, the knight has an extra point of defense and attack, but the Serpent Cataphract is tougher and ,because it turns into a regular lizard after, you have to kill it twice. The knight due to the lance has a greater damage potential for the first strike, but the Serpent Cataphract has slightly higher damage for all strikes after that, and they have lower encumbance. But then it is true that knights are cheaper, and they are faster.

And themetically, Pythium is supposed to have lower calibre calvary then other nations. Their strength is their infantry. Still the Serpent Cataphracts are only slightly inferior, and if you are unable to mass up independent knights, I find your army is better with them then without them. There is just times when you need faster troops.

If I was going to balance them I would simply give them one thing, swamp survival. (and i would consider a small poison resistance) I wouldn't want to change either their cost, or their stats, since the stats do seem to match there description. But swamp survial almost seems like something they should have, and would be enough to give them more of a use.

QM, I am curious on your take on it.

Well, the problem is knights themeslves are somewhat marginal units. A huge investment that goes down the tubes very easy with battle magic. The lance is pretty much thier saving grace (much better than just plain higher damage, since they can actually threaten thugs/weak SCs). So an even more expensive unit with no lance has some real problems. Swamp survival seems reasonably thematic, but by itself doesn't begin to make up for thier cost.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Good point. Knights do tend to get targeted with all the spells. And it is hard to balance that. Technically it should be much harder to hit a fast moving knight with a lightning bolt, then a slow moving heavy infantry, but that isn't built into the game.

Still, knowing this it would be very hard for me not to build Serpent Cataphracts as Pythium, because the game is so much more fun with them.

[Sombre]

In CB the cost of the Serpent Cataphracts is dropped considerably and I find they're useful but not overpowered. Before I would never have built many of them - they could be made slightly more interesting with swamp survival and a bit of poisen res though. Would make them more usable alongside hydras.