What is wrong with the AI?

[Actuarian]

Wikd Thots said:
Now that I have you here I have a question. All of you people who jump into these threads because you know everything that is wrong with the AI.

What happened to the AI mods? Why aren't there any improved AI mods? Make a mod for the Kikass Nation. If the AI uses ****ty infantry then don't give it that infantry. If it uses ****ty pretenders then don't give it those pretenders. Or set the god and the scales and the everything so that the AI can not make stupid mistakes. I am not interested in new nations for ME to play. At least not yet. I do not want mods that add a balanced nation. I want one that is WAY unbalanced. But in ways that the AI will make use of. To hear some of you people all it would take is to trim some units and pretenders from Ulm to give us a challenge somewhere between now and mp.
NO I do not want to hear that mp is the answer.

The problem is not that the AI is too stupid, it's that you're too smart. I suggest taking some mind altering drugs that temporarally lower your intelligence. That should level the playing field.

Either that or mp, because it sounds like you want an AI that thinks like a human.



Seriously, I've only played a few multi-player games, but that is by far the best way to learn the game's complexities, and I haven't been made to feel humiliated yet.

[Manuk]

Is there a better challenge than MP?
And if you play by TCPIP or Mail You can play your turns whenever you want. Since this is not an online game.
Personally I get convinced if some spell or unit is good when it works against me. That´s the ultimate testimony.

[Wikd Thots]

What part of "NO I do not want to hear that mp is the answer" do you people not understand? I HAVE played MP! I know what it is good for. And I plan to play it much more.

But I want to experiment with tactics and things without quitting an mp game as soon as I figure out that it was a bust. Or hear from the experts here "why did you do that"? I've seen some of the comments here and I don't care to play with some people until I have had a chance to experiment some more. The only alternative seems to be to listen to the trashers and do whatever they say is best.

And as far as "why not do it yourself" that seems to be taking the direction that I myself thought it would be NICER for ME not to say. I tried to avoid the direction of "if it is so easy and if you know the answers then shut up and fix it". Some people here seem quick to trash the game AND seem to have the ability to do mods. Since I am not trashing the game then I don't think that I am the one who needs to do the mod.

[VedalkenBear]

Well, your initial post was quite... ambiguous as to your position. That is why so many people have responded as they did.

And, well, don't call for a mod (especially one that can be tested for general feasibiliy so easily) without expecting the response of 'do it yourself'.

Here, why don't you do this? Get the map that has no poptypes on the independents, and see if the AI can do what you want. If it can, great, you have your own answer. If it can't, then you need to do some basic modding to remove some 'bad units' from a nation or two, assign the AI to the modified nations, and then see if _that_ does what you want. If it doesn't, then it might not be doable. Or you may need to refine what you think 'bad' is.

[Ironhawk]

No, I responded as I did just to antagonize you.

Only in jest tho, of course. I understand that some people prefer SP. I even play SP myself from time to time (tho not in dominions).

[UncleYee]

Passing no judgment upon, and indeed not trying to unravel, the OP's point, I'd like to add a perspective to the "MP is the answer" line of reasoning. As an SP player who's starting to appreciate the failings of the AI, I do wish I could play against more challenging opponents.

Yet MP is such a totally different gaming experience, as I assume MP vets know very well. Perhaps, though, folks fail to fully think out _why_ and _how_ MP is so different. If a critique of the AI is to be answered by a suggestion to play MP, the implication is that playing MP is like playing against AIs, only smarter. I hope it is obvious that this is not the case. MP, if I understand correctly, is a far more social experience. It is one that involves interacting with other people to a great degree, and this interaction fundamentally (this can't be emphasized enough) changes the gameplay experience.

To put it another way, all will agree that comparing SP to MP strategies is apples to oranges, but few iterate that the difference in your opponent's tactical and strategic competence is arguably less fundamental to that change than the gameplay shift from private game to social game.

I just bring this up so that MP folks will keep in mind that while some of us might actually relish the challenge of gameplay against more competent opponents, opponents who play as well as those in this bountiful community of MP, none the less many SP gamers are just SP gamers. I don't sit in my room playing video games for hours on end because I get a kick out of interacting with other people. I mean, isn't that obvious?

I hope you'll appreciate the spirit in which this is meant. I love these boards, I love that there's a thriving community for this game, and I love the interaction here, the talking about ideas and strategies and whatnot. And yet, I don't want to play MP. It's just not the kind of playing I enjoy. I don't want to make alliances and gang up or get ganged-up on, I don't want to trade mages with hellbind heart (man that's clever), and I don't want to be a loser online the way I am off. I dont want to try and have more friends than everybody else, because I'm just lousy at making friends. Again, that's all wrapped up in my compulsive videogame playing. Chicken or egg, I couldn't tell you.

OK, I just wanted to chime in with that perspective. I think discussions on improving the AI are very constructive and relevant to the enjoyment of Dom 3 for a lot of people, even if it is primarily a multiplayer game.

[VedalkenBear]

UncleYee: A very good point, but we have no direct methods of improving the AI. About the only option we have are rather brute force methods of choking off specific decision trees (removing choices from consideration).

I wish we did, because I'm primarily a SP person.

[Edi]

Wikd Thots:

If you're the one who is asking how to go about doing something that is not possible with the vanilla game straight out of the box and then sitting back and saying "Nope, not interested in doing that myself", you're painting a huge bullseye on your arse. So don't be surprised when people take the opportunity to see if they can land a savage kick right in the middle of it.

You want variety, changes, then do the experimenting yourself if there is no mod out there that does what you're looking for. Do NOT expect that somebody will do it for you. The people who do mods and maps already get little enough thanks for their efforts, and most of that comes from other modders who know how important it is to get feedback on what you do.

If you expect others to do your work for you and then get up on a high horse about how you shouldn't need to lift a finger simply because you have offered no criticisms of the game (at least in public) when you get irate answers, you are not going to get any sympathy. In your opening post you said you wanted mods of a specific type, then practically demanded that somebody make them for you. If that's not an invitation to get flamed to a crisp, I don't know what is. It's fairly a miracle the response has been as mild as it has been.

You were already given advice on how to change maps so that they have no indies, thus eliminating the hordes of crap the AI so loves to use. There are a few ready-made NI maps out there, if you want more, take the time to do them.

The bottom line is that given the number of people who post here, or just lurk and read the forums, the people who actually produce mods, maps and documentation are few compared to the whole. They will act on their own priorities first, everything else second unless they see benefit for their own projects in doing something for someone else.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well put Uncle Yee. Personally I dont tend to enjoy MP much either. Im just not much for person-to-person challenges. Its ok but it tends to be for me, what SP is apparently for others. So I agree that the "mp is the answer" makes me wish that the conversation didnt get sidetracked that way.

As to the original questions:
Im not sure if setting the pretender and scales can be done in a mod. But it can in a map.

I can understand not wanting to play with no indepts just to get a different AI action. That would not lead to better game play. You might as well play on the mini-map battle simulator where you make the armies and they meet on the next turn. As far as whether or not thats the important flaw in AI, I dont know.

There might be a mod in the mod subforum that duplicates most of the units of a nation which you can tweak to your desire. Some of the "improved" versions of the present nations might give you a clue on how to remove the "weak" pieces. Then you can start a game with that nation, select the god and scales, and after the first turn set that nation to AI.

[Wikd Thots]

Fine, I will try to quiet down.

Gandalf Parker said:
I can understand not wanting to play with no indepts just to get a different AI action. That would not lead to better game play. You might as well play on the mini-map battle simulator where you make the armies and they meet on the next turn. As far as whether or not thats the important flaw in AI, I dont know.

battle simulator? is that a mod? It still does not sound like what I want but it might help on just the formations and what orders to give.