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  #1  
Old May 16th, 2007, 09:57 AM

blitzkreig blitzkreig is offline
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Default Re: Realism vs \"Winning\"

Chuck,

I've been doing some reading on the North West Europe front and what you've said ties in with that. The US Army seemed to have a more artilery avaiable per BG sized formation than you could shake a stick at.

I was interested to note several books making the point that the US and British armies relied on artillery and airpower to suppress German formations as a way of making up for a lack of "aggressive" spirit in their combat units. Not surprising really when you had guys in the British Army who had been fighting for five or more years.

Some authors claim this contributed to the prolonging of the war as allied artillery ammo consumption was crazily high in late 1944 adding to supply problems before the opening of Antwerp port.

Ian
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  #2  
Old May 16th, 2007, 10:04 AM

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Default Re: Realism vs \"Winning\"

A quick realism question aimed at the designers/DRG/Mobhack really.

Some folks seem to be more concerned about accuracy of the oobs than others. It's a great game and is meant to be fun after all. Is this strive for oob accuracy of interest to you or just a pain in the ***? There is modhack after all.

I'd imagine most of your time is taken with the nuts and bolts of how the game actually works! Is it worthwhile for people to be constantly noting errors in the oobs? If it is how much evidence/sources do you want/need to jusdtify a change?

What do fellas think?

Thanks for your ongoing hard work
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  #3  
Old May 17th, 2007, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: Realism vs \"Winning\"

I have no problem with discussions on OOB accuracy. If people can come up with new information that works with the game system and improves the game I will always consider making changes. The same applies to info on individual weapons or units. If, for example, we have a weapon with a penetration number too high or too low then by all means let us know but supply supporting documentation. *IF* we agree we will make the change. Some suggestions however, ignore the reality of game system itself either though ignorance of how the game is put together or simply because they don't like how the game currently models "reality" and want it done a different way usually ignoring the number of man hours required to make a fundamental change in the game and the possible spin off affects in different areas. THOSE are a PITA mainly because the end result on game play does not even come close to justifying the work involved.

As you say, there is MOBHack and a copy of that comes with every game because we know that no matter what we do SOMEBODY will find something they don't like and think should be different.

Both Andy and I are currently on "sabbatical". Occasionally we may answer questions but we both need a change of scenery that does not involve a computer monitor.


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  #4  
Old May 17th, 2007, 06:24 AM

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Default Re: Realism vs \"Winning\"

Hi Ian

Here are some relevant pasages form
http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/car...er/doubler.asp
"
Despite successes in Tunisia and Sicily, the U.S. Army that assaulted the Normandy beaches was still far from being a well-oiled, coordinated fighting machine. Shortcomings in prebattle training and battlefield coordination during 1942 and 1943 prevented the U.S. Army from developing its full potential as an effective fighting force. One of the major problems discovered was the surprising lack of aggressiveness displayed by infantry units. Instead of employing techniques of fire and maneuver to close with and destroy the enemy, infantry attacks often merely located and pinned down the enemy. Artillery fire was then called on to finish the infantry's job of destroying the defenders. Instead of relying on their organic weapons, infantrymen trusted in the big guns of the field artillery to deliver the coups de grace.16
Another problem compounded the infantry's reliance on artillery support. The purpose of the infantry division's mortars and assault guns was to support the attacks of the riflemen. Consequently, these weapons were usually employed close to the fighting front and became favorite targets for German artillery, tanks, and other heavy weapons. American mortar, antitank, and assault-gun crews often suffered heavy casualties. A tendency developed in which these weapons remained hidden and silent until the salvos of the supporting artillery landed on the defenders' positions. Artillery fires suppressed and neutralized the Germans, and only then would the infantry's organic heavy weapons join in the battle.17
Even more disturbing was the poor coordination that existed during tank-infantry attacks. Experience in combat painfully showed that stateside training lacked emphasis on the planning and execution of combined arms attacks. Infantry commanders habitually failed to exploit the mobility and firepower of the tanks attached to their units. Conversely, tankers operating with infantry were often reluctant to aggressively advance, taking the burden of the attack away from the riflemen.18
"
Training presented a problem because of these numbers.
In sept 1939 Hitler has 108 fully trained fully equipped divisions.
In june 1941 Stalin has 178 on the western front alone.
In Sept 1939 the American Army has 5 divisions thats 188500 men and 14400 officers.
So recruiting training and equipping all started too late. Lend lease added to the problem because equipment that should have been used for training was flowing overseas.
from
http://stonebooks.com/archives/000716.shtml
"Even with two BARs, however, the U.S. infantry squad could not match the German firepower, since the MG42 had a greater effective range and twice the BAR's rate of fire. In fact, the MG42 alone could almost match the rate of fire of every weapon in a U.S. infantry squad shooting at once."
Ive been asking for the BAR to be downgraded to reflect this but to no avail so far.

So in short the americans infantry had every reason to rely on divisional artillery, they didnt have smokeless powder (and so were easily spotted) the germans did. The MG34 and 42 were murder the BAR wasnt. The germans infantry was bristling with hand held AT and the shermans burnt easily. The germans had better training.
Considering this I find the American experience 65 morale 75 a bit high compared to the German experience 70 morale 65

AFAIK the British did OK in the field, they had a high level of training throughout. But as the war ended there was a lot of political pressure to minimise casualties. The hideous attrition policy of WWI was public knowledge by now and the current party wanted to be voted back in.

This site is also interesting
http://www.army.mil/cmh/collections/USAWW2.htm

Best Regards Chuck.
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Old May 21st, 2007, 01:30 PM

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Default Re: Realism vs \"Winning\"

I donīt strive for "realistic" forces. Itīs a game after all. The best part is to spend an hour (or two) thinking what to buy, what kind of companies with what possible support weapons to make, create battlegroups of tanks and infantry, is this machinegun better at its job than that one, do I wish to use mortars in direct fire suppot etc etc.

We have to remember that the cost calculator compensates for supertanks and weapons. One tank canīt be in more than one place at a time. I prefer heavy armor, because when I need their firepower, they have to be the best available to be able to nullify serious head-on threats. Tanks for me are meant to take the enemy head-on. Infantry and artillery can deal with lesser threats with some PAK or something. If I canīt match the enemyīs tank power, Iīll have to use tactics and ambushes. This sometimes feels like cheating against the AI, as it walks straight into one.

I just love buying my own force structure from the ground up. Then it is MY force, not somebody elses.
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  #6  
Old May 21st, 2007, 10:47 PM
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Default Re: Realism vs \"Winning\"

Quote:
pdoktar said:
I donīt strive for "realistic" forces. Itīs a game after all. The best part is to spend an hour (or two) thinking what to buy, what kind of companies with what possible support weapons to make, create battlegroups of tanks and infantry, is this machinegun better at its job than that one, do I wish to use mortars in direct fire suppot etc etc.

We have to remember that the cost calculator compensates for supertanks and weapons. One tank canīt be in more than one place at a time. I prefer heavy armor, because when I need their firepower, they have to be the best available to be able to nullify serious head-on threats. Tanks for me are meant to take the enemy head-on. Infantry and artillery can deal with lesser threats with some PAK or something. If I canīt match the enemyīs tank power, Iīll have to use tactics and ambushes. This sometimes feels like cheating against the AI, as it walks straight into one.

I just love buying my own force structure from the ground up. Then it is MY force, not somebody elses.
Amen to all that, Pdoktar.

That's why I play campaigns, and have been since learning the game many years ago. I recruit my KG's/BG's/TF's and treat them like I'm an old and trusted CO.

Cheers, PanzerBob out.
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  #7  
Old May 22nd, 2007, 06:25 PM
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Default Re: Realism vs \"Winning\"

Quote:
pdoktar said:
I donīt strive for "realistic" forces. Itīs a game after all. The best part is to spend an hour (or two) thinking what to buy, what kind of companies with what possible support weapons to make, create battlegroups of tanks and infantry, is this machinegun better at its job than that one, do I wish to use mortars in direct fire suppot etc etc.
....
I just love buying my own force structure from the ground up. Then it is MY force, not somebody elses.
Fair enough - my "game" is to play with reasonably limited kit or under appreciated forces.

To stretch your point completely out of shape, why not take only Tigers and snipers?
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  #8  
Old May 25th, 2007, 08:44 AM

blitzkreig blitzkreig is offline
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Default Re: Realism vs \"Winning\"


It is fun to play with all the shiny best kit but I'm in the realism school of thought. To have any real chance of sucess even against the AI you need a balanced force. Big Tanks with massive guns and armour will still get creamed by trained infantry if in urban areas and forest.

Happy Gaming!
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  #9  
Old May 29th, 2007, 08:23 AM

pdoktar pdoktar is offline
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Default Re: Realism vs \"Winning\"

Donīt take them into forests and towns..
Thatīs what the grunts are for, maybe a Tiger 500-800meters behind the main grunt line ina town, closing the road from enemy vehicles..?

And PatG, I hate enemy snipers, and they canīt still do good things like close assault effectively and keep positions in 1 hex range.
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