MA Agartha, or Yet another thread fishing for tips

[HoneyBadger]

I agree with the Wyrm, although I would suggest maybe Death 6 and 2 points of air magic to go along with the Dom 10.
It'll give him both fear 1 (quickly improveable with horror helmet) and awe 2, and allow you to get a jump on death magic.

You can cast air shield immediately-which will help a lot when it comes to avoiding afflictions, which-aside from curses-should be your major concern in the beginning turns of the game.

Eventually, you'll be able to cast other spells, such as Mistform, Fly, and Mirror Image, which will help your Wyrm continue to be a presence on the battlefield.

I personally wouldn't bother with Astral for your Pretender, just because it leaves him vulnerable to certain attacks, and you can eventually forge a Wraith Crown to cover etherialness, for his other head.

Unless you feel you absolutely *need* high astral magic or the MR bonus, then my opinion is to skip it, or at worst go for 10 astral so you can do unto others without them doing unto you, and eventually Wish, but it's just an opinion.

Make sure you get your Wyrm an amulet of antimagic as soon as possible, though.

[Shovah32]

Did you just suggest a death 6, air 2, dominion 10 wyrm? Well theres -172 points awake, -22 points sleeping and 78 spare points when imprisoned all before any scales so either you get stuck with very poor scales or lose your early game edge. It makes a very nice midgame pretender for crushing armies and stuff and can do ok later on too but with his low protection i dont honestly see him lasting too long against, say, a group of charging knights.
Usually i dont think nationals do much to combat pretenders but after seeing a group of my longbowmen kill a 200 health ethereal pretender with 80% airshield(and 6 protection) im even more concerned about protection than before(although his 2 head slots can give him great protection up there).

[HoneyBadger]

Well, really, I'd bump death back to 5 and Dom back to 8 (I think that gives Awe 0) if I wanted good scales, but it isn't very efficient. I almost always take horrible scales, though, and a quick rush+good strategy can cure scale-woes for a lot of nations.

Protection-wise, that's why the Death, it lets you forge that Wraith-crown. Once you've got one of those, your Wyrm isn't going to have a lot of problems against 80% of all nations, until the mid-game. Wyrm isn't what you want, if you want high Prot anyway. If you need it, though, empower 3 levels in Earth-how hard could it be with Agartha? That'll eventually let your Wyrm cast invulnerability.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

I'd been experimenting with a death-5, water-4, fire-4 crone, bless expansion (plan for magic boosting). Was too slow, but wasn't bad for merely testing the waters. That attack and def bonus makes for a huge diff versus the typical 10at/def indie. I also noted the regular infantry were very great at catching arrows, and was having trouble deciding whether to put my ancients in front, behind, or mixed in.

Interestingly enough, this is the only game I've played where my early goals include killing off my pretender as soon as possible. And the fruits of my suicide run were worth the effort, too.

Oh, and all this was a trial run, so I went with zero scales- barring a bit of luck, maybe. I've still got that game up, but at 4:00 A.M. I'm not opening up Dom3 again for my own good.

Edit:
Does anybody have a detailed guide to say the first 12 turns regarding expanding relatively quickly, barring use of a supercombatant? Or, if not a guide, a example.

Or, do I just need a super?

Edit Combined two posts...
My latest test game I took a ghost king, sloth 1, turmoil 1, luck 1, magic 1. Around 4 death, 4 water, 4 fire, six dominion, give or take a point or two of death/dominion.

Now, with this -1/-1, no active pretender, I managed to take about 8 provinces by the end of the first year. Better than my first game, which left me with that amount by year three. So... not exceptional expansion, but promising.

I didn't use my sacred troops, despite my run towaards the blesses. Only unit that got blessed was one well-equipped ancient lord who never got into battle before all my troops ran by.

Of course, it helped that I was in a resource rich area... I'm not certain how it would have turned out surrounded by plains. Probably be bidding double on mercs. As it was, I was definetly dependent on mercs. But it's not like I had many ways to spend my money, esp since I wasn't really researching yet. So... next, I have to try it without mercs... What's a good target province goal for the end of the first year w/ MA Agartha? In context of a 'new to mp' mp game, standard settings, largish map.

Edit Post three in to avoid tripleposting...
Now using your mages in combat, they have crummy precision, but your regular infantry is great at catching arrows... How would you suggest deployement, and spell focus w/regards to combat? Any situation in which you'd use Earth Readers or Attendants?

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Well, one last post and then I'll restrain myself from bumping it again.

Is it possible to succeed as Agartha without a decent bless?

[atul]

I don't think MA Agartha has troops worth blessing much.

As to mages and their uses, wait one week and I can discuss the strategy I came up with the nation design this thread was initialized for. Now is really not the time. But I hope someone else can contribute there. Or if you're in a hurry PM me.

[Shovah32]

Dominion 9, not 8, gives awe +0.

Yes it is possible to play MA agartha without a bless. They have nice national summons and decent battlemagic and, while probably the weakest of its 3 ages, they can hold their own fairly well.

[Evilhomer]

... I seriously think they might be one of the weaker/weakest MA nations around actually.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

I'm certainly not convinced they're the strongest.

And I'm no expert either... But in the spirit of the thing, I'll try writing a little guide. Usually doing something like that helps me get better too. So, I'm open to criticism and revisions, and contributions.

I'll be blatantly stealing the format used by RamsHead- though I'm unfortunately unable to steal his talent.

A Guide to MA Agartha, Golem Cult

Agartha is a nation of cave dwellers, a declining civilization. Think Avernum, Ultima Underworld, Arx Fatalis. Agartha is a rather straightforward and simple to use race, without the complexities of many other factions. However, despite this simplicity, they can be challenging to use effectively. With a starting income of 5 earth gems, but few summons until enchantment 3 and some research issues they can start equipping commanders (thugs) immediately. All your units have some darkvision, and you have access to amphibious troops.

Troops of the Golem Cult

[blatant plagiarism]
While national troops by and large become obsolete by the late game, having a solid understanding of a nation’s forces is necessary for a strong early game. A powerful early game position will often translate into a powerful late game position.
[/blatant plagiarism]

The strength of the Golem Cult lies in its national summons and mages. None of your mundane troops scream - I'll win the game. Unfortunately, you need 200 research points before you access your first national summon. If you recruited only golem crafters, you would be pushing up against the end of your first year before they were available. Earth Drakes are available earlier, but they have even worse odds at landing a blow than your Ancient Ones.

Your options are rather limited, unexceptional, but quite solid. Your gold costs aren't that high (thanks to low skill), but your resource costs are very high. At least you're thoroughly equipped. No naked warriors or helmless headwounds here. And everybody has a shield.

Your human infantry are pretty much the definition of average. Attack, defense, morale- everything about them is standard. No advantage to be gained by these troops, but no glaring vulnerabilities, either. Though, they all have 50% darkvision. Which, unfortunately, will only matter if you have access to Death 4 or another empire, such as Ermor, tries to cast Utter Darkness. Fortunately, it is possible to get the battlefield spell Darkness with a good dose of luck or a little planning. Oh.. and they all wield short swords.

Your non-human troops are less skilled than the humans, but they have a little more strength and magic resistance, a lot more hitpoints, and less encumbrance than many medium infantry. On top of that, they have 100% dark vision, are amphibious, have a siege bonus, and unfortunately cold-blooded. Did I forget to mention they don't need to eat? And, they don't wield short swords, thank god (You're welcome).

Units

Light Infantry (10/10)
Entirely unexceptional, it will be the foundation of your expansion forces. Unlike most light infantry, they don't come with javelins. They are equipped with short swords, giving them a damage of 15/5 (zero prot/10 prot), practically no repel, and making them quite impotent against Heavy Infantry. If you're facing high prot troops, leave them behind. They aren't cheap enough to be chaff. They can be used effectively elsewhere. They do have a parry value of 4, though. If I'm filling in the formulas properly, they typically have only a 18% chance of being hit by arrows at the start of a battle. Not bad. You can probably use them against light infantry and archer independents without any worry.

Medium Infantry (10/22)
Twice as expensive and what do you get? Well, certainly not higher attack values. But they cost no more upkeep, either. They don't get a better weapon, and they lose some speed, too. But on top of the obvious protection bonus, they get a Kite Shield with a parry value of six, and a protection value of 18. Shield hits can be as much as 16% more likely or as little as 2%. But that's not too important. Where the shield really shines is in protection from missiles. Remember, parry values count double. So,in most situations hits depend on DRN + 6 versus DRN + 14. According to the probabilities chart on page 5, these guys have only a 6% chance of taking damage from missiles. These are excellent missile catchers.

Heavy Infantry (10/27)
Heavy Infantry aren't that much better than medium, but than they don't cost much more, either. They don't gain any additional damage, lose a little speed, are a little easier to hit and tire a little earlier. What they do gain is 3 protection. They are an excellent choice for close combat.. but... with only ten hitpoints, do not bring them to bear against large strong units like giants. Light and regular are better choices. But against your typical size two humanoids and skelly spam, they have a lot more staying power. Given the high resource cost/low numbers, it's not hard to imagine an AoE 1 spell such as Iron Warriors making a difference at earth 2. With an ancient oracle, you can throw in Marble Warriors and Legions of Steel to bring them up to 22 protection, even without boosters or gems.

Tips for your human infantry:
Forced to fight high protection troops with your dinky weapons? Equip an oracle with earth boots and a spare gem and cast Weapons of Sharpness (Const 7). Follow with a Strength of Giants (Ench 3).
Keep in mind that you're using short swords, with a range of 1. This means almost everyone can repel your attacks.
Fighting large units? Go light or regular infantry, not heavy.

Pale One Soldier (10/20)
Size three, 80% more hitpoints, 20% more strength. Unfortunately for you, their two extra points of strength are negated by the fact they're wielding spears, which only do three points of damage, compared to a short sword's 5. The spear comes in handy occasionally, but with an attack skill of only 8, consider yourself lucky if you stop a third of all melee attacks. You won't. Despite all this, and the lower attack score, you might find Pale One Soldiers hitting more often than your human infantry. How is this possible? (and I haven't done all the necessary math to prove this)

Simple. Pit high attack enemies with a weapon range of two against human infantry with a weapon range of 1. The enemy will have a chance to repel virtually every attack, barring morale check. So, thats one attack roll to hit, another to avoid being hit, and a morale check to see if you carry through. Three rolls for one blow.
Pit those same high attack enemies against a Pale One, and while the Pale One won't dodge much, he'll be able to attack requiring only one roll, a single attack roll, instead of those three before.

Despite this, there are good reasons not to use Pale One Soldiers. And thats' the buckler with a parry of two.. The standard missile hit roll is DRN +6 versus 2 + DRN +4. In other words, instead of 18% or 6%, they'll be be hit 46% of the time. In addition, only two fit into a square, instead of three regular humans. Meaning that your pale ones are even more likely to end up as pincushions. If you must bring your pale one soldiers to an archery battle, they'll survive much longer stuck behind some infantry.

However, if you aren't worrying about archers, these guys aren't a bad choice at all. Even in less than optimal circumstances they are worth considering for three additional reasons. Dark Vision. No need to eat. Siege bonus (2).Unfortunately, they aren't better at defending. But these guys are an excellent choice when you wish to besiege a castle. One of these guys is as effective as 3 medium infantry (30,66), and as effective as 3 light infantry (30,30). Not to mention they won't starve when bringing down a swampy fortress.

Ancient One (40, 19)
Now we're getting expensive. But we're also getting sacred.
Let's take sieging first. Say five of these guys, at 18 strength. That's 3 siege damage done before you take into account siege bonus (5). Just five of these does 40 points of fortification damage. Five of these? 200 Gold. 40 light infantry? 400 gold. If you've been buying five a turn for eight turns, you can bring 40 to a siege. Bit of an investment? Yes. Scarce? Yes. But 320 points of reduction strength are hard to argue with.

They're better in just about every way compared to Pale Soldiers, even if you don't factor in bless potential. While unfortunately, you can only fit one to a square, and all the missile fire landing there will target one figure, it does give a small advantage in dodging the missile (Size in square = 4 instead of 6. Leading to a 30% chance of being hit, but a 100% of being targeted, instead of a Pale One's 46 and 50 respective chances.

On the plus side, they're a decent counter to tramplers. They're too large to be bothered by size four tramplers, which are unfortunately rare in the middle age, excepting Pangaea, R'lyeh, Vanheim, and elemental summons. On the plus side, with forty hitpoints, they have little trouble surviving a trample and have a decent chance of hitting and panicking an elephant.

Commanders:

It's worth noting that all but two commanders can be built outside of the capital. It's also worth noting that every mage requires a lab and temple to recruit. Add on the cost of a fort, and this gets pricy. Keep an eye out for rare magical indies that require only a lab. If you happen to find a library, even better.

All your mages are sacred, and priests, and at risk of old age. And since they're sacred, they're fairly cost efficent, too. And not a single one has precision over 8.

Military leaders:

Agarthan Scout (20/3) - Nothing special, they do come with darkvision.

Cave Captain (30/22) - A slightly better form of medium Infantry, they come with a surprising 80 leadership. For 30 gold. Too bad you'll have trouble massing that many. But at least it lets you recruit twice as many units without having to spend a turn not recruiting a mage. If you're going to equip him- most likely because you have more earth gems than you know what to do with- I highly recommend a Sword of Sharpness. Better attack, defense, damage, aromor piercing, and a reasonable length to avoid repels. Boots of Strength. Theres a couple other helpful items, but I'd rather kit out an Ancient Lord.

Pale One Captain (30,20) - A slightly better form of Pale One Soldiers. With less leadership, you'll only recruit him to lead amphibious assaults. Which may be more often than you'd imagine. If you can't sneak past enemy lines, than go around. Force them to defend at more than one point. There are a variety of ways these guys can be improved, but most important would be a real shield (Black Steel for 8/9 parry - remember, counts double in missile combat). For some meaningless fun, recruit a bunch and fit them all with Midget Mashers and Boots of the Behemoth. Watch and laugh as, no longer carrying shields, they die instantly to a barrage of arrows. No arrows, then you have a bunch of size three tramplers dealing double damage in melee.

Ancient Lord (90, 21)
This guy is Sacred, Capital only, and size 4. Wouldn't make a bad prophet (attack and defense bonus? Sign me up)or Death Match champion. There are some important equipment changes here. First, the Battleaxe instead of the spear is a length three weapon. It also appears to be two handed. This means you have no shield, and are amazingly vulnerable to arrows. How you deal with this is up to you. Protect with armor, shield, or just get yourself a Midget Masher and take your chances. A two-handed sword of sharpness doesn't help against arrows, but offers some rather nice attack and defense + AP bonuses right off the bat.

Mage-Priests

[atul]

Lazy_Perfectionist, very nice, you gave me some food for thought. However, several remarks if I may.

As you note, the regular troops won't cut it mid to late game. Therefore I think you shouldn't advice on using Weapons of Sharpness when there are (almost) viable alternatives on research levels way lower. Namely, Rust Mist and Destruction against high-prot troops and Earth Meld against high-def troops, and Magma Bolts for a good trashing after that. All low research and castable by Earth Readers who are recruitable from any castle unlike the Oracles. I feel that Agarthan troops absolutely scream for battle mages accompanying them, unlike many other nations who can manage with mundane means. Note the Earth Readers' average leadership (45) which is quite uncommon to mages usable in a fight. But that's more matter of a magic section, not troops.

Also, I think you've ignored the Pale Ones' size 3 in the melee part, it means they get only 2 attacks against a block full of human-sized opponents who attack thrice. With their poor att and def, I think that equals a world of hurt.