German ranks

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
Well if all these were full sized divisions the Germans may have held the russians for an extra year and ended up being nuked.
For instance.
33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (französische Nr.1) - "Charlemagne" This Division was little more than a brigade
It was formed in the last 2 months of the war and made up form the remains of 33rd Waffen Cavalry Division wich had been destroyed at Budepest. The French element was one regiment and one Brigade
27.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division (flämische Nr.1) - "Langemarck" This division again brigade size.
These below seem to be pretty typical of the poorly performing "SS" Divisions.
13.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.1) - "Handschar" Formed 1943 Mutineed during training brutalised yugoslavian civilians was disbanded and reformed as a mountain regiment.
21.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (albanische Nr.1) - "Skanderbeg" and
23.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.2) - "Kama"
Both had such high desertion rates they were disbanded.
But then we have,
14.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (galizische / ukrainische Nr.1) - "Galizien" Wiped out in the Brody-Tarnov pocket.
15.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr.1) - "Lettland" fought to the death in Berlin.
33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (französische Nr.1) - "Charlemagne" fought to the death in Berlin
28.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "Wallonien" (wallonische) Wiped out on the Order 1945

So yes there were SS 'divisions' that were a "joke" but these seem to be way under strength, didnt last long and didnt do much. Most of these paper divisions seemed to have been used in police actions and had little if any opportunities to surrender in any case. The Nazis organised a SS division for every country they occupied to pretend that Europe was united in a crusade against Bolshevism" and these are usually the substandard units you refer to. They are more for propaganda purposes than fighting.
From a second source that plagurises the first.
"Perhaps the most crucial of these fire brigade battles was the containment of the British and Canadians at Cean in June July 1944 where the seven Waffen SS divisions fought themselves to virtual destruction."
Im not sure here but these appear to be

1.SS-Panzer-Division - "Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler"
2.SS-Panzer-Division - "Das Reich" (also "Verfügungstruppe", "Deutschland", "Reich")
3.SS-Panzer-Division - "Totenkopf"
9.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hohenstaufen"
10.SS-Panzer-Division - "Frundsberg" (also "Karl der Große")
12.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hitlerjugend"
17.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Götz von Berlichingen"

For game purposes I think that most players are thinking they are buying men form units such as these when they buy SS not from one of the small shortlived substandard units.
So maybe "no surrender"?
Looking at the diversity of the SS maybe there is a opportunity here to give it its own OOB like the Marines?
Best Regards Chuck.

[wulfir]

chuckfourth said:
Im not sure here but these appear to be

1.SS-Panzer-Division - "Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler"
2.SS-Panzer-Division - "Das Reich" (also "Verfügungstruppe", "Deutschland", "Reich")
3.SS-Panzer-Division - "Totenkopf"
9.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hohenstaufen"
10.SS-Panzer-Division - "Frundsberg" (also "Karl der Große")
12.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hitlerjugend"
17.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Götz von Berlichingen"

Totenkopf division was not in France during the Normandy campaign, it was in the east.

As for the 17. SS PzGren Div, I've studied it some for a possible German Normandy campaign - but I shelved it. Nobody would want to play the 17. SS in Normandy - it was not particulary well equipped and it was reduced in combat pretty much the same as any other German formation in that campaign.

[narwan]

Well Chuck, I think you're forgetting two things here. First that most SS divisions raised in the war started out as smaller formations, usually either legions, regiments or brigades before being upgraded to division status. The second is that the accepted size of divisional formations dropped significantly during the war. All of the divisions in the list I give were at some point or other actually formed as a divisional formation (taking into account the difference of the size of divisions at different periods of the war).
If you want to add all the formations that didn't reach divisional status or divisions that were planned but never really formed the list would be much longer.
Also the lesser quality unit usually weren't short lived either. The prinz Eugen division for example was raised as early as march 42 and fought till may 45 but its troops weren't exactly the best around.

Your examples of what happened to some of these formations illustrates my point perfectly. The quality of SS formations ranged from units fighting to the death to units that were disbanded after some time due to high desertion rates (and in a few cases even acts of mutiny). Most were in between these extremes for most of their existence. In other words, a general 'no surrender' rule for the SS doesn't seem to be in order for the game. And divisions fighing to the death doesn't mean that all individual members fought to the death, it means the formation fought on till it had no one left. But the losses could have come from many different factors, including surrenders by individuals or smaller groups.

As to the brigades of the SS-VT you mentioned earlier I'm still not sure what these mean. Maybe these are in fact the regiments that made up the SS-VT division after it's formation in '39. The unit was not used as a division for the invasion of france in 1940 but was split up. The motorised infantry regiments were given some of the other divisional units (artillery, recon, etc) giving each them brigade status. After the campaign they were merged again into a division, the brigade status being merely a temporary thing.
As to the kampfgruppe Nord thing, maybe that's something misunderstood by a source (of a source) somewhere as some of the SS field units served with Army Group North for Barbarossa.

The 17th SS fought against the US army in Normandy btw, not the british and canadians.

[PanzerBob]

Good day, all

Interesting discussion, some of which could be thrown back and forth for years. I do like the idea of an OOB for the SS, however, I think this is best left as something that those of us who want one to cobble together for ourselves. The reason being is that a lot of ready-made scenarios and campaigns have SS & Heer etc units together which run off OOB16.

In line with this idea, is there a Flag MOD out there, which would change one of the Red, Green, or Blue slots to an SS or Death’s-head Flag/Victory? (Maybe I should make this a separate thread) I've tried cobbling this and other icons with the SHP editor and screwed things up royally.

Eternal War (gaming) PanzerBob

[Shan]

Guys,

excellent collection of data posted here, I also own some books and other material on the SS, just didn't have time to post.

Overall, you have to consider the ambiguous recruiting policy f the (Waffen-)SS and therefore cannot apply the same morale/exp ratings to all SS units, neither parallel, nor throughout the course of the war. For example, you cannot apply the same exp/morale bonus to the 1st, 2nd SS-Panzerdivision or the nordic divisions and some formation consisting of Albanian or Ukrainian recruits and never reached division strength anyway... (Handschar, etc...)

During the early years (Poland, France), SS units were fighting very agressivley and therefore had a higher proportion of casualties, but generally most formations were of inferior standards, definitely inferior when compared to the Wehrmacht - for instance, the Polizeidivision and the Verfuegungsdivision were recruited from former policemen and guards, and used mostly captured weapons (czech, later polish, french, etc...) - those were not as well-trained or -equipped as the average Wehrmacht division. Also, the personnel used to rotate between frontline service and their 'normal' job as a concentration camp guard, etc...

Then, you have this problem of recruiting elite forces when the Waffen-SS was enlarged later in the war. There was a general lack of recruits, so the SS had no right to recruit normal Germans as the Wehrmacht did - it could only take volunteers, that's why it started to recruit in western and northern Europe and later had to give up its hight standards (arian hertiage, blond&blue eyes, etc) and recruit also from the german-speaking inhabitants of eastern europe ('Volksdeutsche'), who were generally looked down upon to say the least, and later they recruited even eastern europeans with no germanic blood at all- these were units mostly for rear guard & partisan-fighting duties- just as the Wehrmacht did when it turned russian POWs into 'Ostbataillone' of very low quality when it came to a fight.

At the same time, however, the elite formations were still kept up and even expanded - by using ever-younger boys, hence the division 'Hitlerjugend' - and those boys, raised in the system and totally loyal + devoted to it, fought like hell...

[blitzkreig]

Hello all,

Some interesting points. I think its worth noting that the "elite" divisons such as the 1st SS Pz Divison Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler suffered huge causalites during the latter stages of the war. To such an extent in fact it was technically "destoryed several times over" ie it lost more men than the divison actually contained over a period of time.

With the chronic German man power shortages these losses were often replaced by drafting unwilling volunters from the Lufwaffe into the units in mass. Even the Leibstandarte dropped any pretence of racial selection by the end of the war.

What is surprising is that these "premier" divsions functioned at all after these losses. replacemnts often only had months, weeks or even days to retrain and integrate. In any allied army the divison would have been decleared combat ineffective going through a similar process. A testamont to the effectivness of the NCO's and officers of these SS formations.

On a seperate note I do like to use SS formations and recreate their engagements. They performed some stunning feats of soldiering and were very adept at modern manouver warfare. The issues of warcrimes however has always left me feeling a little uncomfartable doing so. Espically since the more I reasrch German Pz and SS forces the more I come across. Does it bother other folks I wander?

[Marek_Tucan]

dunno about their addition to modern art of warfare, the impression I got was that that was rather domain of the Wehrmacht.