German ranks

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat Sorry for the Offence.
Thanks also for providing the link Ive read it and it is very interesting If you have no further interest in discussing these matters thats fair enough. I would just like to bookmark a few specific points from your links text here to avoid another reading of the link if this topic arises again later.

"As the new conscripts of the 7th Division underwent their advanced infantry training on the dusty plains near Tsitsihar, its members concentrated on the three cardinal drills of the IJA: bayonet practice, firing practice, and maneuver"
"Taking advantage of folds in the ground, sand dunes, and depressions for cover, 5th and 7th Companies employed fire and movement tactics to advance about 1,500 meters. Riflemen would dash forward to the next suitable ground concealment and from there fire at enemy strongpoints to keep Soviet weapons crews pinned down so that other Japanese infantrymen could rush forward"
No Japanese massed charges.
Japanese retreated in good order.
Infiltration and "hit and run"(raids) more common for the soviets than the Japanese.
A soviet sniper did move forward but did so in the company of an infantry platoon.
"They appeared to be an artillery observation squad with an infantry security platoon."
after being shot up
"Sweeping the killing ground, Japanese troops recovered twenty rifles, three light machine guns, a sniper rifle, and twenty pieces of various field telephone equipment."
You may find these links of interest.
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwi...a/chapter9.htm
Best Regards Chuck.

[wulfir]

Here's an interesting piece regarding the initial fighting between the Japanese and Australians along the Kokoda track:

"The Japanese were easily able to push the Australians back: their numbers were far superior, as was their drill.

They would often send a scout forward and be prepared to lose him, which would be followed by an almost immediate strong frontal attack, in which quick casualties were often accepted. But the speed with which they then outflanked and encircled and destroyed the enemy reflected their light equipment, their excellent camouflage and, above all, their tremendous and almost silent deployment."

from A Bastard of a Place: The Australians in Papua, p 100.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Wuljur

Quotes from Orbis publishers WWII
Im still not sure what light infantry means, for instance
In the Kokoda campaign the Japanese infantry carried a 100 pounds load. Artilleryman and engineers carried an extra 16 pounds. "The Soldiers made a kind of woodmans carrying rack for their load and like pilgrims with portable shrines carried it on their backs. Now they plodded on, step by step supported by a stick through those mountains of New Guinea"
The Japanese had also dragged two 70mm howitzers and Mortars along this 3 ft wide track which made them -more- Heavily armed than their initial opponents the Australian Milita which had no howitzers and possibly no mortars.
Here is something from their manual
"Westerners- being very haughty , effeminate, and cowardly intensly dislike fighting in the rain or mist or in the dark. They cannot conceive night to be a proper time for battle though it is excellent for dancing. In these weaknesses lie our great opportunity."
The New zealanders however did have night fighting training.
So it seems that in this situation scouting is indeed a hazardous operation, suicidal in fact ie because it is along a single track and the enemy is hidden in the jungle.
Ive found that in most detailed decriptions of Japanese jungle figthing that the speed of their response (excellent training) and speed through the jungle (excellent fitness) consistently amazed (and defeated) the Allies, which is why I used to like it when the Japs had 8 movement points instead of 7.

Heres a quote from the American Field Marshal 'Slim'
"We all talk about fighting to the last man and the last bullet. The Japanese soldier was the only one that did it"

[PanzerBob]

"Westerners- being very haughty , effeminate, and cowardly intensely dislike fighting in the rain or mist or in the dark. They cannot conceive night to be a proper time for battle though it is excellent for dancing. In these weaknesses lie our great opportunity."

This falls into the old adege that "The First Casuality of War is the Truth".

The Allies had similar prejudices of their "Jap" enemies which the front line soliders soon learnt were not true, and those who didn't, did so at their own peril.

The same was true of the German beliefs of the Russian and even American soldiers.

All part of the psychology of warfare, a part of war that if one forgets like logistics, one may find his army in deep kimchi.

Eternal War(gaming) PanzerBob

[wulfir]

chuckfourth said:
Heres a quote from the American Field Marshal 'Slim'

Slim was British.

"We are taking Umbrage."
- Calvert

[chuckfourth]

Howdy
You are correct confusing him with stillwell, check check and then check again.
Chuck

[narwan]

Light infantry has nothing to do with the amount of 'weight' a trooper carries into battle but refers to the TO&E and the organisation of the larger formation. Light formations have fewer heavy equipment and what they do have is often of a different kind. The 70mm howtizers you mentioned are a good example. They are much lighter than what one usually finds in a comparable infantry formation and can be carried in parts by mule. The example you gave that the japanese had some arty at Kokoda only illustrates why light infantry (the japanese) is sometimes better than regular (or heavy) infantry (the Australian CMF troops); their lighter equipment can go where the heavier equipment of the normal formations can't (or not in time at least).

[Marek_Tucan]

I dare guess light infantry troops in fact do hump more on their backs than regular infantry - they're light because they have a light rear - less trucks, less and lighter guns and so on... On some case it enables them to do as Japanese during their advance to Port Moresby (or to Singapore or whatever), sometimes it turns against them (Guadalcanal, Milne Bay, almost any place where the Allies have already learned "how to"...).

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
The 70mm is a good and a bad example at battalion level it was heavier than the equivelent in other armies, a mortar. At divisional level it was lighter than the usual 105mm (though the Japanese did have a 105 and 150mm howitzers in common usage). The British had the 88mm (25pounder) as the standard infantry divisions divisional gun. But nobody would call the English light infantry.
So... the Japanese infantry divisions had just as much artillery as any other countries sometimes more, ie the standard 3 battalions per division but also their regimental guns, missing in most other countries TOE.
They had engineers and Recon, antitank and antiaircraft assets and sometimes tanks.
So So they dont have "fewer heavy equipment" other than that their artillery was lighter than the equivelent calibre in other countries. By your definition Mountain troops must also light infantry?
check the Japanese OOBs at this site
http://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml
http://www.fireandfury.com/pacificinfo/japanese.pdf
http://www.fireandfury.com/pacificin...anjapanese.pdf
http://www.fireandfury.com/pacificin..._jpn109div.pdf
http://www.fireandfury.com/pacificin...aneseburma.pdf
Best Regards Chuck.