Glamour post 3.08

[LoloMo]

I'm playing blessed shadow vestals in two MP games. I'm not worried about banishment at all. On the other hand, I'm scared of flaming arrows. Very scared =)

[Baalz]

Honestly, seems like the bigger change with regards to the vans is that glamor no longer protects against *spells*. Perhaps a few scepters of authority might work well now if your screen can hold them for a few turns? Generally, there are not going to be a whole lot of vans, so spells that effect just one target might work out well. Also, has anybody yet seen the vans go up against crossbows (or arbalests) in 3.08? Seems like that would work significantly better than short bows.

[thejeff]

The problem with this fix is that it probably affects the most problematic units least. Vans and Helhirdings carry shields and are fast enough to cross the field in a round or two. Even without the glamor, it's hard to get enough arrow hits on them to matter.

EA Vanheim's Vanheres are unshielded infantry. Without shields they'll take more hits and they're slower so you'll get more rounds of fire, before they start slaughtering your meat shield.
Vanheres are good sacred troops, but I don't think EA Vanheim was considered anywhere near as overpowered as Helheim or the later Vanheims.

I haven't played with the Sidhe, but they're mostly shielded infantry right? So they'll get more volleys, but still take few hits.
I don't believe they're considered overpowered either.

The problem units are the ones least affected by the change.

[llamabeast]

I think that Baalz makes a good point, that the most important change was that glamour no longer works against spells, rather than against arrows. Losing protection against arrows is just an added bonus to my mind.

[Shovah32]

Vans with an E9 bless have high protection and shields. You shouldnt really expect arrows to do any damage to them but if the arrows arent removing glamour then theres a problem.

[Kristoffer O]

Sound as if there is some consensus on blessed vanir (especially mounted) still being too powerful (or at least more powerful than most other strategies).

[Shovah32]

I honestly dont think they are that bad and i believe there are quite simply better sacreds out there. One of the big reasons vans get hit so hard is that they require slightly more specialized tactics to combat effectively and the ai tends to struggle with this(they are also probably the most well known and popular).

[Baalz]

Not to sound contentious, but I'm curious as to what you would consider a quite simply better sacred? Yes, obviously there are plenty of examples of different units being better in certain niches, and perhaps you can lay out an opinion that another unit is a straight up more cost effective combat unit (though I can't think of any). The thing about the vans though is they are extremely effective at *everything*. Sure, they'll beat the snot out of you through just brute force, but even if you do manage an effective counter, their glamored stealth plus high movement allows them to control the combat both strategically and tactically. Stopping their raiders is well nigh impossible for many nations, raiding them back is pretty much suicidal as you can't tell where any of their map-move 3 defenders are, and very few tactical rituals short of late game are effective given their MR and general hardiness. This is an aspect that often gets overlooked when people are complaining about their brute strength, their brute strength is multiplied by their insane versatility. That's why they're so hard to counter, stern resistance is not met with a headlong charge, but being greeted with that other aspect of the Vanir - the fact that they're better guerrilla warriors than Pangea.

High defense, high speed, high protection, high MR, high damage output (with a good bless), high stealth, high maxage.... given that, what sacred is quite simply better?

[NTJedi]

Shovah32 said:
I honestly dont think they are that bad and i believe there are quite simply better sacreds out there. One of the big reasons vans get hit so hard is that they require slightly more specialized tactics to combat effectively and the ai tends to struggle with this(they are also probably the most well known and popular).

I agree Vans are not that bad especially since they are capital only. On very small quick game maps they obviously seem too powerful which is why we hear about it.
Even if one of the nations was more powerful it provides more of a security blanket for new players which will probably lose the first few games anyways.

[thejeff]

Arrows (and everything else) don't remove glamor unless the do at least one point of damage.

It does sound like Van and Helhirdings may still be too powerful. I'd like to suggest that any further nerf be to them and not to glamor in general.