request for new patch: an ai that can learn

Loren · #1 July 18th, 2007, 03:18 PM

You don't realize how complex such an AI would be.

There is one thing that could be done for the AI, though--take it out of the game.

Instead, put the AI in a .dll. Publish the interface to the .dll. The name of the .dll would be an option when setting up a game. Allow the community to write AI's for it.

MaxWilson · #2 July 18th, 2007, 03:51 PM

Actually, I really like that .dll idea. The thing I like about interfacing through .2h and .trn files is that the infrastructure is already there, and you could write your AI in any language--but there are also concerns about possible hacks. A .dll could still implement the AI in another language by spawning an AI process and communicating with it through a pipe.

-Max

Loren · #3 July 19th, 2007, 02:01 AM

Quote:

MaxWilson said:
Actually, I really like that .dll idea. The thing I like about interfacing through .2h and .trn files is that the infrastructure is already there, and you could write your AI in any language--but there are also concerns about possible hacks. A .dll could still implement the AI in another language by spawning an AI process and communicating with it through a pipe.

-Max

Yeah, you've got a point about hacks.

Ok, a separate .exe that links a .dll that provides an API for dealing with the world, reading the .trn file, writing the .2h file etc. No data it's not allowed will even be in it's memory space. Have the main game engine read in the .2h file and check the legality of the orders in it.

To help things along I would suggest releasing the source for the AI. It wouldn't cost any sales--without a Dominions game the code is worthless.

alexti · #4 July 19th, 2007, 02:23 AM

There's no real need to support DLLs or provide API or anything else. Publishing .trn and .2h formats would be sufficient. AI can be hooked through existing --preexes/postexec options. Some utility library to read/write in trn/2h format can be written be fans - that will be the easiest part of developing AI

vfb · #5 July 19th, 2007, 05:40 AM

Quote:

alexti said:
There's no real need to support DLLs or provide API or anything else. Publishing .trn and .2h formats would be sufficient. AI can be hooked through existing --preexes/postexec options. Some utility library to read/write in trn/2h format can be written be fans - that will be the easiest part of developing AI

Sounds like a great idea! The only problem would be if the .trn files contained any information about other players that you wouldn't know for just normally playing the turn (for example province ownership, army locations, equipment).

If it contains this info, then even before you get people writing AIs, you'll have others writing cheat programs.

MaxWilson · #6 July 19th, 2007, 11:30 AM

Well, there's also the possibility of the host decoding .2h files and cheating by knowing other's moves. Of course the host already has a ton of ways in which he could cheat.

-Max

HoneyBadger · #7 July 24th, 2007, 09:26 PM

If you could just get the AI to recognise a few very decent starting strategies to get them through Pretender creation and the first turn of the game, and then a very few explicit things definitely *to* do and definitely *not* to do

(EX: *do* recruit independent archers when you can, if you don't have national missle troops, but *don't* recruit independent troops when you can recruit better nationals, *do* forge magic items items to protect your expensive commanders, but *don't* forge those little amulets that turn them into werewolves, unless werewolves are better than what they already are), then you'd have an improved AI

This could be handled with a ranking system-like "spend 100% of gold income on national troops", unless you can recruit missle troops, "spend 95% of gold income on national troops if you can recruit slingers, 90% if you can recruit archers, 85% if you can recruit crystal amazon archers, and 80% if you can recruit longbowmen" limited ofcourse by available resources, just as an example.

You could then give them a list of Pretender builds to choose from and some idea of what to do with them.

MaxWilson · #8 July 19th, 2007, 02:26 AM

I suspect JK and KO would be less concerned about the lost sales than the headache of a million eyes looking over their collective shoulders as they code.

It's one thing if you were expecting to open-source it all along; it's another thing to have to justify a thousand little hackish kludges to people who weren't there when you needed to insert them.

Of course, maybe JK is superhuman and never needs to kludge.

-Max

Gandalf Parker · #9 July 18th, 2007, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Loren said:
You don't realize how complex such an AI would be.

There is one thing that could be done for the AI, though--take it out of the game.

Instead, put the AI in a .dll. Publish the interface to the .dll. The name of the .dll would be an option when setting up a game. Allow the community to write AI's for it.

Kindof the same thing I said. External AIs. Except that mine would open it up to more people I think than a dll.

As long as it allows 3rd party AIs without compromising the security of the games internal files then Im all for it.

Kristoffer O · #10 July 18th, 2007, 04:22 PM

dll are windows only, right? That makes Gandalfs proposal a lot more likely. Nothing will be developed unless it is first made to work under linux. The Windows version is a bonus to all those people who happen to have a windows computer besides their linux

In other words, JK develops the game in linux, and tries to make it work under windows and Mac OSX as well. It usually does. He is fascinated with operating systems (or was, when development of dom-ppp begun).