Sophistry - (Finished) Winner DrPraetorious!

[Jazzepi]

Actually, I had no idea you had done this until I read it in a post 3 up. I didn't even see the call for people to line up to get free gems, or I would have said something then.

My problem is with the fact that you're not even involved in the conflict between Ry'leh and Atlantis. You have no ties to it, for all I know, Maverni is on the other corner of the map, but for some reason the person I'm fighting against suddenly has an extra hundred gems for no reason other than a quick forum post?

What if it was an extra 3000 gold? What if someone had staled 3-4 turns, had huge coffers and just felt like giving them out?

And of course they're *your* gems. I don't think that there should be any literal control over how they're sent, or who they can be sent to, but my problem isn't with that. I don't think that the devs should build anything into the game. My problem is that you're pissing my cheerios because you want to have some sort of last huzzah before you're wiped out of the game.

>MY gems, MY choice to give them away the way I want. NOT YOURS.

Just because they're your gems doesn't mean you should do anything you want with them. Theoretically, I could sign up for a game you're in, farm up a couple thousand gold, then give it to one of your opponents. Of course it would be MY gold, but that doesn't mean I SHOULD do all the things I CAN do with it. Do you see the difference?

Jazzepi

[Sensori]

Jazzepi said:
Actually, I had no idea you had done this until I read it in a post 3 up.

What have we learned, kids? It pays to follow the goings on in the thread, after all.

My problem is with the fact that you're not even involved in the conflict between Ry'leh and Atlantis.

Yep. Not involved in any shape or form. Note how there was no war when Atlantis said "gimme!". Otherwise I might've reconsidered giving them to him. Well, guess he got lucky.

-- for some reason the person I'm fighting against suddenly has an extra hundred gems for no reason other than a quick forum post?

Luck's fickle fate.

What if it was an extra 3000 gold? What if someone had staled 3-4 turns, had huge coffers and just felt like giving them out?

*I* didn't have huge coffers of anything when I did the thing. Thank Helheim for taking me out a lot slower than I thought he would. ;p And 100 random gems isn't exactly a lot, especially when you've been getting more gems than Atlantis on a regular basis for, like, ever, according to the graphs. Probably even closer to types you actually use. In fact I'd say that Atlantis receiving the gems only tipped the balance of power more into status "balance" rather than "imbalance".

If I had 3000 gold, I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in now would I. Ohh... What would I have given for 3000 gold... That would've had my war machine working a little longer.

And you know, these "what ifs" are kind of lame IMO. What if someone was winning the game, had 50:1 provinces compared to everyone, BUT THEN SURRENDERED? :O What if USSR was still standing? What if the nazis had won the 2nd World War?! What if that guy's mother is actually his father?!??!

Seriously though, if someone felt like giving out gems or money for whatever reason, well. That's their choice. If they aren't actually losing or anything, it's like saying... "Here are the keys to victory. Now look as I throw them away." It may suck to the players who didn't receive anything if they actually needed it, but that's how it is. Do you consider inviting another player to conquer some of your provinces before the aggressor manages to take over all of it imbalancing, too? Since as far as I know, that happens. Often.

My problem is that you're pissing my cheerios because you want to have some sort of last huzzah before you're wiped out of the game.

This "me pissing in your cheerios" happened because you happened to start fighting with a side that happened to be one of the two who said "gimme!" when I asked about giving out the gems. If you actually read the thread at any relatively constant rate, you would've managed to predict this. It is hardly my fault that you are fighting Atlantis rather than Oceania.

Just because they're your gems doesn't mean you should do anything you want with them.

Should? Not really. Only thing that's a "should" in this world is dying. ;p Could? Yes. Wanted to? Hell yes. I'm dead. If the only thing I can do to help someone else, even a random nation, to win, is giving gems, I'll do it. At least later, if that side happens to win, I can think that my sacrifice had some part in that victory. A small part, but still a part.

Theoretically, I could sign up for a game you're in, farm up a couple thousand gold, then give it to one of your opponents.

In practice, one thing is griefing and the other one is not. I didn't give them to Atlantis because he's YOUR opponent. I have nothing against you. He just happened to be one of the two people to say "gimme!" when I asked. Not to mention that couple of thousand of gold isn't quite comparable to hundred random gems of which most aren't even usable by the recipient, which will have to be alchemized, dropping the actual number of gems to half. If he wanted to turn them into gold, it'd be closer to 25 fire gems then.

Not to mention that I may have exaggerated the actual number a little. ;p It's closer to 100 than 50, and most of them (~50%, probably over) were air gems, is all I can remember. All in all, I think if I had just wanted to actually affect the game's balance the most, I would've thrown the air gems (all of them) to Caelum or equivalent and so forth. Note how I did not do that.

[DrPraetorious]

If you're going to be eliminated, it is legitimate - and, I might say, entirely wise - to do everything you can to hurt the one that eliminated you. This includes aiding whomever you think to be his likely enemies.

It's the primary means to discourage early rushes like this, which might otherwise completely predominate even in MP.

[Baalz]

I don't know, I think its generally bad form to engage in scorched earth tactics unless your opponent broke a NAP or something else like that. It just smacks of bad sportsmanship to me, trying to degrade the victory of someone who defeated you after the fact. It's only "wise" from a games theory POV if you're trying to influence future games by what you're doing here, which also seems rather poor sportsmanship (as in you're trying to give yourself an advantage in a subsequent game that has nothing to do with that game).

[Jazzepi]

DrPraetorious said:
If you're going to be eliminated, it is legitimate - and, I might say, entirely wise - to do everything you can to hurt the one that eliminated you. This includes aiding whomever you think to be his likely enemies.

It's the primary means to discourage early rushes like this, which might otherwise completely predominate even in MP.

I actually agree with you. If you're going to salt the earth and discourage people from screwing around with you in future games, I have no problem with that. My issue was with the sheer randomness of the gem distribution. As I mentioned before, the people who got the gems had nothing to do with Maverni.

Jazzepi

[BigDisAwesome]

I'd have to agree to Jazzepi. It would have made more sense for him to split his gems up between Helheim's immediate neighbors than to just randomly throw them out.

[Velusion]

He said he was going to do this quite a few turns ago... why didn't you guys pipe up then to try and change his mind?

[BigDisAwesome]

Well seeing as how the entire thing went down in 23 minutes here, it would have been a little hard. I was just piping in to state my opinion with the last post. I didn't pipe up before now because it didn't really affect me.

[Lingchih]

Exactly. No one on the post said anything negative at all about the gem giveaway when it was originally posted. I just happened to be lucky, saw Sensori's post right after it went up, and said "me too".

At the time, I thought it would be a handful of gems from a dying nation with no gem income left. Imagine my surprise, and delight, when a whole treasure chest arrives.

Oh, and a couple of turns before that, I got the 3000 gp random event. I seem to be lucky in this game so far.

[Sensori]

Argument: "SHOULD'VE THROWN GEMS TO HELHEIM'S NEIGHBORS."

No one helped me out in the fight, so why should I have helped anyone specific? You guys are the ones not making any sense. Why should I help people that would make more sense to you instead of sprinkling my gems where ever I felt like it? You guys didn't help me, Helheim's neighbors didn't help me, why do I care?

I have absolutely no idea.

Argument: "KILLING PEOPLE IS BAD SPORTSMANSHIP."

Right. My nation is dying. I had my armies mobilized into Helheim's lands well before my death was certain anywhere but my head. Very quickly I came to realize that I can't even hold my own with 100 troops against 10 Helhirdings. Result? I try to hit Helheim where it hurts: his pocket book. Bad sportsmanship? If trying to at least do SOMETHING to weaken the attacker is "bad sportsmanship"... That has to be the worst joke I've heard today. Sure, I might've continued it well beyond the last sell by date, but that's all I could do. By the way, I have 0 units left now.

I'd understand claims of "bad sportsmanship" if it was ME who started the war, but guess what? Marverni doesn't try to rush Helheim. There, I almost laughed out at the very idea.

Unless this is the good old "I DIDN'T RAEP HER, HER CLOTHING SAID SHE WANTED IT" argument.

/fuming

Jesus Christ, people. I just wanted to get rid of my gems and hurt Helheim with what I had. Affecting later games? I call people by the names of their nations in every game, for crying out loud. I wouldn't prolly even remember who did what in the next one. My name memory is horrible. To make R'lyeh feel a bit less betrayed by the eevil streaking men of the deep South East, I sent a couple of gems to him that I got last turn.