Vengeance of the dead, what the hell

[Kuritza]

>> I don't really have an opinion of VotD being overpowered. I do think the Dead not routing when they should ("special monsters are routed" message) is cheesy and quite possibly unintended.

I couldnt have said it better. I had no problem knowing 400+ units will attack my God, he's a SC after all. Or that my mages wont surivive even 30-40 zombies, its ok. Thats what this spell is for, if you ask me.
Its the autokill thing that freaked me out.

[Tuidjy]

This discussion has gotten to the point where no one says anything new:

These are the three positions.

1. VotD is fine as it is. Some targets are immune, MR helps, real SCs
can handle the task, hide the target.

2. VotD is overpowered. It is very low level, it's available to bless
rushing nations, MR eventually fails, if a SC is hiding he is not SCing.

3. VotD default resolution is counterintuitive and exploitable. The
rule is 'defenders win a stalemate', constant doubling of the task will
soon make it impossible, it's stupid when the hero is unharmed but dies.

It is clear from my posts that my position matches #3. It is just as clear
where everyone else stands. This thread has descended into name calling.
Until one of developers tells us whether the current outcome is what he
had in mind, the discussion is pointless.

[BigDisAwesome]

Well put Tuidjy. I'll go ahead and chime in and agree with #3.

[Yucky]

Did your god not have Air magic? The Evocation 2 spell "Shock Wave" seems like it would be great for taking out swarms.

Since the attack takes place in the commander's dream, I suppose bodyguards are left out?

[llamabeast]

Very well put Tuidjy.

I'm a #3 guy myself.

[llamabeast]

Incidentally I think a couple of points made in this thread are not quite right.

Firstly the 81% avoidance isn't right as I understand it. Assuming the enemy mage has zero penetration nad your guy has MR 25, I think the chance of the spell getting through is less than 1% (see the +15 entry in the DRN table at the start of the manual - if my memory serves correctly in only actually goes up to +14 so the chance is off-the-scale small and you were very unlucky).

Secondly moving around can't help you with 'dodging' since rituals happen before movement. So if your enemy can see you with scouts (not too hard) he has a 100% chance of getting the right province.

[lch]

llamabeast said:
Firstly the 81% avoidance isn't right as I understand it.

Yeah, I can't count.

[Saint_Dude]

Several points:

1) MR is not as effective vs. remote map spells as one would predict. I have done extensive testing with Mind Hunt and have come to the conclusion that MR is effectively 2 less vs. remote spells compared to battle field spells (i.e MR 25 acts like MR 23).

2) VOTD can kill immortal pretenders in their home prov. Immortals that die in friendly dominion due to the 75 turn autoroute rule do not reappear in their capital the following turn. I have lost a Risen Oracle (with 750 kills) in friendly dominion to this spell.

3) No matter how awesome your SC, there will be a number of undead which can not be defeated in the turn limit. I have had a lot of SCs with over 1000 kills. There is no way (that I know of) to take out that many undead in 75 turns. And even if you could, the next go around you would be facing 2000 undead. The end result is inevitable.

4) If the only true counter to the spell is to run away and hide in a remote part of the map, then the SC is effectively killed as soon as he finds himself targeted. He certainly isn't going to be hanging around on the front lines doing any good.

[Valandil]

Equally many points:

1) I hadn't noticed this. Is it possible that your testing failed to account for another factor that was present in all remote cases, but not all battlefield ones?
(dominion, astral magic, enchantments?) I'm not questioning your metheods, of course, just trying to verify results.

2) This is weird, and probably unintended. I had also noticed weirdness with immortality and the turn limit.

3) Of course correct, but I think this highlights an important fact: Any SC (or unit, for that matter) can be brought down by expenditure of a given number of resources. In the case of VOTD the resources expended are mage-time, gems. The SC killed by VOTD must then be more valuable than the sum of the values of the mages, the gems expended, and the values of the units he killed before the Vengeance kills him. In many cases, vengeance of the dead is not actually a cost-effective solution (eg. a MR 23 W9 Dragon with no magic items and 100 kills. -not really an SC, I know.)

I believe that killing 1200 undead in 75 turns is very possible. I personally have used (against LE Ermor) an archangel with the forbidden light (and SC equipment), casting fire storm. Actually, anything that scales with the numbeer of opponents (battlefield enchs., mainly) would probably work.

4) As per above, you can also not counter it except with good equipment and high MR, and rely on cost effectiveness and economics. Alternatively, you could teleport/cloud trapeze/one of the five million other movement spells to somewhere totally different, or sue for clemency (ie. diplomacy). Or you could put up a dome of flaming death.


In all honesty, VOTD really isn't any better, even considering its low cost in research and gems, than earth attack, mind hund, manifestation, disease demon (AAH!), etc.

Granted, I'm a pretty awful MP player with almost no experience, so what do I know?

[Saint_Dude]

Valandil -

As for mind hunting and the success of remote magic overcoming MR. . . I have carried out extensive testing of Mind Hunt (and limited testing of VOTD), literally simulating thousands of attacks with mages of different levels equipped with different combinations of penetration boosters vs. targets with MR ranging from 20 to 27 and with either drain or magic scales. All the targets in my simulations were in friendly dominion, but I don't see how that would affect much beyond the MR of pretenders and prophets (and the possible influence of magic scales which were already accounted for). None of the targets had astral paths since I was targeting 50 at a time and they would have just feebleminded my casters.

A a5 mage with +5 penetration casting Mind Hunt (+1 penetration due to level) on a target with 25 MR (in a prov with neutral magic scales), will kill said target approximately 8 or 9 % of the time (as if the calculated difference were -7 instead of -9). When the target has a MR of 21 the Mind Hunt will be successful approximately 25% of the time (as if the difference were -3 instead of -5.

When a target is in a prov with drain scales the target is more resistant to Mind Hunt, and when the target is in a prov with magic scales the target is more susceptible.

Bottom line - Mind Hunt is more effective than Soul Slay, (i.e. it has a higher kill rate).

I assume the observations that I have made with Mind Hunt carry over to VOTD, but cannot be sure at this point due to limited testing.

As for the possibility of killing 1000+ undead in a battle. . . . yes it is possible, but only for an SC that is specifically kitted and scripted to the task. If you are fighting Ermor this may occur by natural happenstance. But if you are not engaged with Ermor or fighting alongside friendly forces when the VOTD hits, it is unlikely that one would have firestorm or like spells scripted. Most battlefield spells that would work against such large numbers of undead would also injure your own troops and have significant gem costs. They are only scripted in specific scenarios.

Ohh, and I am in total agreement with Micah.