Esoteric Roman v. Greek Ranting (was Philosophers)

[Tichy]

noname: I don't know about the Roman v. Greek debate, but I do know that you're accepting Plato's account of the Sophists as gospel. Socrates is a complicated figure: Able warrior, stonemason, but also client of the moneyed, landowning (anti-democratic, pro-spartan) class of which Plato was a member, that possibly subsidized his langourous gadflying about the city and invited him to exclusive parties like the one fictionally depicted in the Symposium.

One problem is that 'philosopher' in ancient greece meant different things at different times (and to different people with different political interests). Think of Diogenes living in his tub, "no dogs or philosophers allowed," etc. To many it was synonymous with penniless bum, or skygazing goofball, such as Aristophanes' depiction of Socrates in The Clouds. The pro-philosophy anti-sophist side had their idealized image of the philosopher and jaundiced image of the sophist, and vice-versa. But even Plato recognizes that sophists like Gorgias teach a particular skill -- persuasive public speaking -- and only gives them the caricature treatment when they claim to teach "wisdom" that's more than a useful skill.