Mod: Arga Dis, Blood and Bronze - NEW VERSION 1.4

[Amhazair]

I've been lurking around here for a while, but had never yet actually downloaded a mod nation (even though several sounded quite intresting from reading about them) since, well, basically I lost intrest in SP quite some time ago. With this latest post however I decided to have a look at the new version and give it a quick whirl so I could give some feedback.

First of all: the flavor, the unit types, the graphics, everything fits. I just really dig the nation. Just looking at things makes me want to play them. (In MP mind you ) Also all the sprites are really nice. (From reading stuff here it seems people have come to expect this from you, but it's still worth mentioning. )

The regular untits are all very nice, and they all seem to have their uses. In a (very) quick test game - basically just early expansion and an early attack on the AI without mage support to gauge the power of the military - Only 15 turns or a little more - I recruited and used most of them and was happy with their performance. I didn't use windriders nor orphans yet, but I can definitely see me recruiting them for their own purposes. It's also a really fun idea to make the sacred unit a low-morale version of the regular troops. A few remarks:

* The hoplite line of infantry seems a little slow. If regular Ulmish infantry with its heavy armor and a tower shield moves 7 it would seem that the hoplites with their relatively light armor should move at least 8 or 9, even carrying around that beast of a shield they've got. I don't know if you're conciously trying to give them a 'slowly but inexorably marching towards the enemy' feel, or if they just happened to turn out that way?

* While in the long run the sworn companions aren't quite as survivable as elite knights (they have only half the armor and the same defence) they are also relatively easily massable thanks to their low resource cost. I'm curious what effect a big unit of fear causing heavy-damage cavalry will accomplish on the battlefield. I have a hunch they'll be fine, but it bears watching by someone who actually makes it into mid game.

* Despite what someone said earlier in this thread, the PD doesn't seem all that strong to me. (I don't know if you changed it?) In fact, I would rate it at slightly below average, with the helgrots rushing ahead and getting killed before the hoplites can join the action.


* At 80 gold the Haimgrots make decent bloodhunters, say Marignon level. Not nearly Mictlan level obviously, but then they shouldn't be that good either. They do have one problem though. Roughly half of the Misborns you will be recruiting anyway also have 1B, and while they're a bit more expensive at 110g, they're also sacred, so they cost less upkeep than Haimgrots, which is really the deciding factor to set up a stable long-term blood economy. As things stand now I see no reason to recruit Haimgrots. I'm not sure what would solve this problem. Making the Haimgrots holy would obviously work, but this doesn't seem quite thematic to me. It would also make them slightly better bloodhunters than Lanka, only behind Mictlan in efficiëncy. While I don't think this would overpower Arga Dis as a nation I don't know if this is the flavor you want to give them. You might also give them 2B for the same price (Marignons hunters are 1F1B for 80g), but I didn't delve deeply enough into Blood hunting Mechanics to figure out if that would make them better bloodhunters than the Misborns. Maybe ask Baalz, he should know. (And they have to be better for people to recruit them, at equal bloodhunting value the Misborns will be recruited due to their flexibility. ) Third option would be to tweak the Misborns somehow to make them a worse choise as bloodhunters. (but then that would make the misborns a far less useful unit)

* I don't know how the misborns used to be in previous versions, but I really like how they are now. They're quite efficiënt little researchers. 7 out of 16(discounting the two 10% randoms) make efficiënt blood hunters, and 5/16 (DD, FF, EE, and EF) make useful battlemages. With stealth as a little bonus feature. (it will probably also mean you'll miss half your battlemages at a crucial battle because you forgot to shift+click to move them but anyways. ) I love them. Maybe you could hike the price up to 120 though? They're more versatile than, say, C'tis shamans, and have 2 extra randoms, but they do lack the communion ability. They do have two issues though, in the context of their nation. First, as I mentioned above, their blood-hunting ability makes your poor Haimgrots superfluous. Second, these guys will be your main battlemages (since the Gilgans are mainly there for blood rituals and thuggery) We're talking Ulmish levels of magic here, a bit more versatile (they have death) but not more powerful. (no magma eruptions without earth boots or lucky randoms for example)

* The Gilgans have truly Abysmal MR. Similar level big badasses such as basalt kings or Agarthan oracles (let alone Niefel Jarls) have 18 or at least 17 MR, even if you drop a level lower in big-badassedness Jotun Skrattis still have 17. Given their price I don't see how you can justify kitting them out for combat and sending them out into the fray with a base MR of only 14. This pritty much eliminates their use as a SC. On the other hand, given their ability to cast some of the top-end blood rituals (with appropiate boosters), and their ability as a SC (If the MR gets boosted) - with access to blood vengeance, and ,depending on randoms, ironskin and/or fire shields - they might use a sligh price hike, into the early 400's. (Gut feeling here, no advanced math was harmed in the making of this product ermm, asessment. If you want I could look at this more thoroughly when I'm more awake)

* General powerlevelwise - keep in mind this is very, very theoretical, from just looking at their units and 15+ turns of play, as I mentioned - they seem somewhat below average, with a strong military, but no powerful sacreds (and no tramplers either) so no early rushers. (And they do seem particularly vulnerable to trampler rushes.) A good blood capability, and a recruitable SC chassis (if the MR gets boosted, else they don't really have this either) but poor battlemagic. I have the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that you prefer your nations to be slightly below average rather than slightly above average, so all in all this seems quite fine.

* I've been thinking a bit on ways to solve the Misbred/Haimgrot problem, and came up with 3 possible solutions to make both units desirable. Two out of those will make your nation a bit more powerful, but - I believe - not too powerful. Combining parts of the different solutions would also work.

First option, quick and dirty: strip the misbreds from blood magic. This would obviously install the Haimgrots as your bloodhunters, and leave your misbreds as researchers and battlemages. (5/9 misbreds will have one of the abovementioned 'battlemagic' path combinations) Main problem with this solution: thematically it seems to me the misbreds should have access to blood.

Second option: make the Haimgrots cheaper/more efficiënt. The Vaetti Hag for example costs only 55g for 1? so there is room for improvement, depending on how efficiënt a blood nationd you want them to be. Perhaps make them holy as mentioned above if you think it fits thematically, or give them 2B.

Third option: Hike up the misbreds price and power a little bit. Maybe into the 150 range? This would indeed make them potentially a bit better battlemages, but I do feel there is a bit of room for it. After all these guys are your main battlemages. You could also combine the second and third option, making the Haimgrot a bit cheaper, the misbreds a bit more expensive. Depending on where you want to see the strength of the nation in the different areas. Personally I dig the idea of keeping the battlemagic (and thus the misbreds) as it is now, and making the Haimgrot a really efficiënt bloodhunter, rivalling Lanka, but that's pure personal taste.

I hope the last part was coherent enough to be of use, I'm getting really tired and should have been in bed some time ago.

Anyways, that's it for now. This turned out to be a very long post, for what is basically a very nice nation mod. (it's the first I see, so I can only compare it to vanilla dominions, but that doesn't change the fact it's very nice. ) Since there's been some posts around here and there asking people to give feedback I thought I'd be as extensive as possible this one time I actually get around to checking one out. You should obviously use what you think useful and disregard everything else.

[Sombre]

I'll reply to this in a little more depth later, but one thing I think you've missed is that the Haimgrot has a base dousing bonus of 1, so he bloodhunts like a B2 mage. I tried to imply this in the description.

[Humakty]

Amhazair, I played with this nation big SP games, and, for the moment, they don't seem balanced for MP. It's true the AI almost never uses battle magic in a systematic way, and it is almost impossible to stop them without (tramplers are quite efficient, like always against small elite troops).

[Sombre]

Humakt: What about the nation isn't balanced? Can you go into a bit more detail? People have been telling me the nation is underpowered for the most part, so if you think they are overpowered then I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Their infantry are very good, but expensive. Their sacreds are ok, but not exactly great. Their fear causing cavalry is powerful, but is expensive and isn't heavily armoured.



Amhazair: Thankyou for your detailed feedback, it's much appreciated and exactly the sort of thing I'm after.

The speed of the hoplites is set to 7 across the board pretty much because despite having only light armour (that's why they have mapmove 2 not 1) when they're in battle they advance carefully and protect each other. It's supposed to represent that they're fighting in a phalanx-esque formation.

The PD seems pretty poor to me to. It hasn't changed a huge amount, but I did weaken it. It isn't supposed to be very good, just a way to get more bodies onto the field really.

About the Haimgrot, as I said in my earlier post, they have a douse bonus of one, so hunt at a level of B2. You still might be able to build solely misborn and use random B1 and B2 ones for hunting though, so maybe they need to be a touch cheaper.

I agree with making the Misborn 120 gold or so. Not a huge change but maybe they're a touch too good right now. Arga Dis is supposed to have relatively weak magic, but obviously be strong in blood and have a superior military.

Gilgans can have higher MR - I'll make it the same as an quivalent MA big mage/thug. It's not supposed to be a weakness. Being cap only I don't want to make them more expensive though and they are a major feature of the race. I might change my mind later.

And yes, I prefer to have a below average power mod than an above average one. People have the general impression that mod nations are hugely overpowered and they're happier when you boost rather than nerf stuff, so I prefer to try and shoot just under the bar and then slowly raise it according to feedback.

Glad you enjoyed them - as others will probably tell you, I keep updating and supporting my mods whenever feedback is available. I'm striving for good quality across the board here.

[Humakty]

I tested Arga on Glory of the Gods, so I had to fight really big battles against the AI.

The experience told me that an elite army is almost never too expensive, as they tend to survive and fight many battles, whereas less elite troops tend to die quickly.

The AI finds it almost impossible to vainquish elite armies because she almost never makes a systematical use of her good mages.

i.e.:abysia armies almost never have a suficent number of mages to compensate for their poor OB (only heavy infantry)

This behaviour makes Arga really powerfull, because the AI tries to crush you with hordes of chaff archers (inefficient because of Arga big shields)and light infantry.

Even if the AI adapts a little ( I spotted that on a big map, when you often have time to build another army if the first gets crushed, the AI tries to change the composition of its army, though I don't know if it is a random process or an intended reaction) Arga OB is sufficently varied to adapt.

On a MP game, human players take in account the weakness and strength of their civs, and I suppose they often decide to systematically put one or more battle mages in their armies, a technique which can ruin the day of an elite army like Arga.

None the less, I think that some of Arga troops could be tuned down (I'm at work, so I can't check the names).

For example, I think the armored guys (the ones who bath in blood)are a bit too well protected,lowering greatly the problems their army could have had because of being all unarmored. In facts, if you put them at the front of your battle line, ennemy archers will continuously fire on them, making your army almost impervious to missile fire.

All in all, I don't say I do not like this mod, in fact I love it, I think Arga OB is a little bit too complete for an early age nation,can you really imagine marverni winning against these guys ? But this problem will be solved if you put them in MA (crossbows will be a big problem).

PS : when I say a nation mod is overpowered, it is compared to an average civ, not compared to the heims

[Sombre]

They are in MA. Are you playing with the latest version?

I think the elites beating AI problem is something which comes up with virtually every nation - try massing ermor/pythium elite infantry or even just lots of indy heavy cavalry and see how the AI does against that. I believe you'll find it falls apart in much the same way, because it just throws chaff at them piecemeal and they all end up with lots of experience and virtually no casualties. Other nations are actually far better at this because they have more powerful sacreds, generally speaking. The AI has no answer for basically any sacred with say F9W9 on it.

Marverni are pretty much the absolute worst nation (in EA), so while I can imagine them winning against any other given nation (with difficulty, especially in early game), they aren't especially useful as a balance measuring stick.

The real issue for me is that a lot (if not all) of these problems vanish in mp.

Btw I'm 99% sure the AI doesn't adapt and basically builds at random.

[Kristoffer O]

I like it. It has a nice flavor. But I think they are quite powerful. I have not analyzed them, but I came across some things I remember.

Recruitable fear-causing troops. Say 5 of these guys can rout 1000 militias. Size doesn't matter when faced with fear. Rout checs are not dependent on losses, so the squad will be subject to rout checks regardless of losses (with a bonus due to squad size, but in the case of militia it might not help). Thus only highly magical units has fear. The nightmares of the onyx amazons are the only recruitable ones i know of, and they have 20 enc to compensate.

Hoplite shields. Parry 8 is high (I was about to write insane, but that sounded a bit offensive ). A towertshield is pary 6, and is supposed to be the largest shield in use. I doubt few magical shields has parry 8. With parry 8 no missiles will ever hit the unit.

The Hoplite shield bash is also quite powerful. Second bonus attacks are good. I think the bash might come from another mod, but it is still powerful.

Gilgans can get 5 in blood magic (6 if 10% lucky). This is higher than all MA nations, with the exception of R'lyeh IIRC. This might not be a problem, but you should consider if you want them to be: 'A race of bloodmages of unequalled powers. No other nation have so immersed themselves in bloodmagic as the Gilgans. Their skills in bloodmagic is legendary and can almost rival the powers of the gods.' Something like that

As I said it is not a problem in it self (especially since blood magic don't benefit as much from increased skill levels as other paths), but you should be aware that you are making the most powerful blood nation there is.

I didn't play the nation, just checked around, so I cannot say if they are unbalanced on a grander scale. Low MR etc might well compensate for other strengths. THe two things I would be concerned about is the fear and the hoplite shields. The Gilgans go nice with the flavour of the nation, even though they are more powerful than other MA mages.

[Amhazair]

Sombre said:
Amhazair: Thankyou for your detailed feedback, it's much appreciated and exactly the sort of thing I'm after.

You're welcome. I actually love soing this kind of thing, diving into the mechanics of a game I'm playing, trying to figure out the best options. Unfortunately, for some weird reason I have far less energy to do this since I'm working.

The speed of the hoplites is set to 7 across the board pretty much because despite having only light armour (that's why they have mapmove 2 not 1) when they're in battle they advance carefully and protect each other. It's supposed to represent that they're fighting in a phalanx-esque formation.

Yeah, I thought this might be it. Fair enough.

About the Haimgrot, as I said in my earlier post, they have a douse bonus of one, so hunt at a level of B2. You still might be able to build solely misborn and use random B1 and B2 ones for hunting though, so maybe they need to be a touch cheaper.

I did indeed miss this. (and the description) It (the description) actually fits right in with the dozens of other little hints that are spread around the game which you're likely to miss unless you pay close attention. Well done. I suppose you can still give them a dousing rod to up their bloodhunting level one more?

I dived into the manual for the exact mechanics of blood hunting, and - unless I made a mistake somewhere along the line - as things stand now the Misborn is still a more efficiënt bloodhunter. With a sanguine dousing rod Haimgrots generate 1,22 slaves/gold of upkeep, (1B)Misborns 1,37, so while the difference is not as big as I thought it still favors the Misborns. If you were to change goldcosts to 120g for a Misborn and 70g for a Haimgrot, things get turned around, giving 1,39 slave/gold for Haimgrots, and 1,24 for Misborns. You'll loose a little bit of that edge since 3 (effectively) 3B hunters will generate just a bit more unrest on average than you can recuperate with 0% taxation, so you'll miss the occasional hunt due to unrest. I'm not sure how to start calculating how much you'd loose, but I suppose the relative values would be allright here. (and your bloodhunting efficiëncy will still be behind Lanka and Mictlan, but better than most other nations. ) The occasional 2B Misborn would still be the best bloodhunter, by the way, but I don't think that's a huge problem.

I agree with making the Misborn 120 gold or so. Not a huge change but maybe they're a touch too good right now. Arga Dis is supposed to have relatively weak magic, but obviously be strong in blood and have a superior military.

There's different ways of making a nation magically weak though. Say the Niefelheim way: powerful but expensive mages with awefull research efficiëncy, or the Ulmish way: Limited paths and low maximums.

Standing on itself the Misborn is a nice mage, even at 120g. He's a good researcher, depending on paths either a good bloodhunter or a good low level battlemage, has access to quite a few useful items for forging, and is sacred to boot. Add him to an existing nation - say Abysia - and they'll get a huge powerboost. But in the context of Arga Dis he's fine. Unless you envisage Arga Dis as really slow researchers too, because that they won't be with the Misborn in his current state.

Gilgans can have higher MR - I'll make it the same as an quivalent MA big mage/thug. It's not supposed to be a weakness. Being cap only I don't want to make them more expensive though and they are a major feature of the race. I might change my mind later.

About the price: I looked around a bit at other big guys. In MA the only recruitable in that category are the Agarthan Oracles, but while you could compare them magically the Oracles are just so much poorer as a SC chassis there's hardly any comparison. In EA on the other hand you can find some real yardsticks to measure the Gilgans by. Basically both the Basalt King and the Dai Oni are phisically similar to the Gilgans, with similar stats. Both these guys have a serious edge in the magic department though. With F/W/E and F/E/D with possible air random they have amazing self-buff capability. (the Basalt kings can't self-bless though), and they're both also very powerful battlemages if you choose to use them that way. So in view of all this they should definitely fall quite some way short of these guy's 500g cost, but keeping them cheaper than 400g Oracles is just criminal. Someone needs to give those poor Agarthans a break, don't you realise they're a tragic and dying race? They move me to tears... Then again using a dying race as a yardstick might not be the best idea in the world. Seriously though, I'd peg the Gilgans at roughly 430g, though obviously you can make some allowances for the nation as a hole. (And I also haven't played Arga Dis for nearly long enough to actually be able to use the Gilgans, and judge them in action. ) Alternatively you could weaken them a little bit, knocking off a few hp, lowering strength a little, reducing the berserk to maybe 4, generally make them into really powerful thughs (with equipment obviously) rather than real SC's.

Glad you enjoyed them - as others will probably tell you, I keep updating and supporting my mods whenever feedback is available. I'm striving for good quality across the board here.

I've peeked in on the mod forums enough to be aware of that. Judging from what I see and read, and from this one nation I looked at you're definitely succeeding at this.

[Sombre]

I'll get 0.8 of this released on the weekend. I think I'll give them a new pretender. A blood and air tornado I think, like a huge air elemental only red ;]

[llamabeast]

Ridiculously minor comment: In the Blackwing description (they are very cool by the way), 'reigned' should be 'reined'.