Wishing for snatch?

[Tuidjy]

I cannot understand how someone may at the same time suggest that killing the
Chalice holder is a plausible way of getting it, and have a problem with clams.
I have never, ever lost the Chalice to anything but a wish, and I very seldom
get it any other way, either. Clams on the other hand, I have looted, lost,
ravaged with remote spells, etc...

As for clams being unbalanced, I'm not quite sure where I stand. I would prefer
if the chance of a clam popping a pearl was something like

NumberOfProvincesOnMap / (5 * NumberOfClamsInGame) rounded down to 1

This way, the clam income will never be too much of the total gem income, and
a player who didn't clam early will be able to weaken his enemies' clams.

But I do not dare hope that the developers will want to put time in this. I have
also found out that I do not enjoy big games at all, so I do not care much.
Anyone starting a game on a map bigger than 150-200 provinces is asking for
a late game that is in many ways out of whack.

[Velusion]

Frostmourne27 said:

Ok, you play large games. Isn't that a bit like complaining about the fact that Ulm sucks in the late game. If you reqularily play on maps wiht 500+ provinces, balance changes enourmously. I don't think that's the most common form of game here though.

As for complaints, I just searched the forums, and I found, uhhh, two threads on it, and assorted mentions in the MP and AAR category. Of course, there are a huge number of incidental hits. The two threads, I should note, were on a clam-related bug and the worth of empowering to forge clams. Not a huge complaint about balance. I'll try and start a poll, if I can figure the code out, to find out how unbalancing people think they are.

I usually play about 14-16/provinces per player. The game considers that "medium" though in the MP world it's considered large. The average map I play on is probably around 250-310 provinces with about 20 players.

Most of the complaints are in MP threads or scattered in other threads (like this thread for example).

As far as the amount of large MP player games, true there are fewer of them but there are usually about 3-4 going on at a time (at least) and they usually involve 2-3x more players than a smaller game. The Perp game alone had 62 players - and there will be another mega game starting. I think you underestimate the amount of MP players/games that are affected by clam whoreding.

[Nikolai]

Aegis is overrated. It's nice enough, but it paints bullseye on SC that has it, and it does not help much with smart targetting.

Mage Bane and Chalice cannot be rated enough high. If I have Wish, Chalice is first thing I steal. Mage Bane I steal after I have someone worthy... not everyone can hold to that sword ;-) 100 pearls are too much to steal other stuff. You are doing better if you invest in a non-unique titan with level 6 equipment.

[Xietor]

"Erm, so it's more fair for the unique artifact (Chalice) to be unobtainable if you're not the first person to hit construction 8?"

1. It takes a significant risk to go to constr 8. Not many combat spells in that line. So if you get ambushed and you are at constr 6 and another player is at evoc 6, then you may pay for that risk dearly. So yes, if a player takes the risk and makes it to constr 8 1st, I think he should be able to keep the chalice until it is taken from him.

2. The Chalice is not "unobtainable" because you cannot wish for it. Killing the person holding the chalice is a tried and true method of getting it as well. Just like killing the caster who puts up a global is another method to bring it down. You do not always need to cast dispel or overwrite it.

Many const 8 artifacts have become available every turn as races kill the holders of these artifacts in the Big Game.

[Micah]

Right, you're going to somehow kill the guy that has the chalice, even though he's likely a Tartarian, so no remote spells can touch him, and he's got access to a lab (in a fort) that can whisk the item to any other commander in the nation, or the the completely safe lab area, or to any other nation in the game. Why don't you go ahead and kill all the guys holding those clams you hate so much while you're at it? Problem solved.

Also, a lot of nations just don't have the research potential to hit construction 8 first, even if that's the only path they researched, or nature magic to get GoH up. I think it'd be a bit unfair to completely deny them access to tart-healing.

[Frostmourne27]

Xietor said:

2. The Chalice is not "unobtainable" because you cannot wish for it. Killing the person holding the chalice is a tried and true method of getting it as well. Just like killing the caster who puts up a global is another method to bring it down. You do not always need to cast dispel or overwrite it.

The Chalice is not an overpriced ring of regeneration. Very few people are likely to go galavanting around the countryside carrying it. It will mostlikely spend turns circulating amongst various forts and strongholds, where it will be almost uncapturable because: A) It will be difficult for enemies to locate the chalice before it gets spirited away to some other diseased tartarian B) the player with the chalice may not lose in a well defended province C) The mage with it may sruvive D) The commander with it may die to well crafted assassin plans, but the assassin might subsequently be killed.

Wish is highly overrated. The best wish by far, if you have 100 pearls a turn, or an alteration site, is gems. Abominations, Ehter Gates and 1000 gem nexuses are also possibly better uses of the pearls. I agree that clam hording is somewhat imba, especially for patala, who also get hammers, but wish isn't a major factor in that.