OT Which would you Choose

[Randallw]

dogscoff said:

Yeah, Horza bora Gobochul is one of my favourite characters as well. How far did you get? Did you get to the tunnels?

You need to read some of the other books to get a broader view of the Culture. My favourites are probably Excession (I love all the Mind-talk in there, I'd happily move to the Cultureverse for nothing more than a chance to chat with a Mind) and Use of Weapons, which is just so dark it's, well, completely frkn opaque.

I recall they had just left the ringworld that was blown up and Horza killed the captain and replaced him. The culture agent told the crew who he was. It had promise. I liked the ringworld, and the spaceship combat stuff, but I can't stand the stance it takes. I wanted the Religious aliens to win. Normally I would never support aliens over humans but the humans in the book aren't human, they're slaves to machines and I know a later book discovers Earth.

The Culture destroying the ring world merely so the enemy don't get it reminds me of Soviet scorched earth policy.

I saw one episode of Firefly that was mostly boring though I liked the alliance ship at the end. I merely couldn't get into "Cowboys in space". We were discussing Joss Wheedon after I overheard a friend call him a whore. I asked him why he was calling my 6th cousin a whore, and we got to talking. He pointed out Star Wars was cowboys in space but I said Han solo didn't wear a trench coat and use a revolver.

[dogscoff]

Randallw said:
I recall they had just left the ringworld that was blown up and Horza killed the captain and replaced him. The culture agent told the crew who he was. It had promise. I liked the ringworld, and the spaceship combat stuff, but I can't stand the stance it takes.

Fair enough. bear in mind though that your view of the Culture in that book is coloured by Horza's outlook. When you read the others you see it from a different point of view. It's supposed to be different to the society we live in though, and it's supposed to be challenging.

I wanted the Religious aliens to win.

Who says they don't?

Normally I would never support aliens over humans but the humans in the book aren't human, they're slaves to machines

No, not slaves at all. The Minds and drones don't need slaves, they could exist perfectly happily without any humans at all. In fact, you could argue that their existence would be considerably easier without. No, they keep humans around and make life (very) comfortable because they like them. Minds are whimsical like that, and that's what's so appealing about them. They are very much like the old Greek/Roman Gods: Insanely powerful, but obsessed with watching/ tinkering in human affairs. Maybe that makes the humans in the Culture more like pets than slaves (and this is explicitly said in at least one of the books- excession I think), but they do still have freedom- people leave the Culture all the time, and humans are definitely respected.

In fact you could argue that they're *more* human than us: Without the stresses and pressures of trying to scratch a living/ accumulate wealth/ stay alive etc, they have the free time and resources to devote to *being* human. The Culture would probably argue that we are slaves to our economy, and they would probably be right.

and I know a later book discovers Earth.

Actually that's in one of the first Cuture books: A short(ish) story in State of the Art. It's extremely funny. They are in orbit around 1970s Earth, sending down people in diguise to learn as much as possible about Earth society. The bit where one of them watches Star Wars and then asks the ship for a working lightsaber is brilliant.

The Culture destroying the ring world merely so the enemy don't get it reminds me of Soviet scorched earth policy.

Note that they evacuated it first.
An Orbital (not quite a Ringworld) is a massive structre, but not such a big deal to the Culture. I think their resources are so vast and their attitudes are such that the loss of material things doesn't bother them too much. They'll just build another one. Hell, I wouldn't put it past them to go back, scoop up every bit of matter from the original and put it back together from the same bits. Just because they can- Like I said, whimsical.

I saw one episode of Firefly that was mostly boring though I liked the alliance ship at the end. I merely couldn't get into "Cowboys in space". We were discussing Joss Wheedon after I overheard a friend call him a whore. I asked him why he was calling my 6th cousin a whore, and we got to talking. He pointed out Star Wars was cowboys in space but I said Han solo didn't wear a trench coat and use a revolver.

Firefly takes a little getting used to but once you're in, you'll love it. Note that it is the ONLY science-fiction anything that my wife actually likes (and she doesn't just like it, she loves it too=-). If it helps, ignore the "space" bit and concentrate on the cowboys bit. In fact, even that is irrelevant. JW's stuff is all about the characters. You could dump the crew of the Firefly or the cast of Buffy in just about any setting and it wouldn't matter, it would still work.

I really don't see any reason for anyone to call JW a whore- he makes good, entertaining TV that people like to watch, and he gets paid for it. What the hell is wrong with that?

[Randallw]

I don't know why he said that, we got distracted after I mentioned he was a relative.

The appendicies to the book said the religious aliens lost. Maybe the other books are better, I'll never know. I gave it a chance, he failed to interest me adequately. No more giving him money. I didn't just go to the back of the book. I was actually reading an article about the aliens and it mentioned the series, at which point I realised I'd never read it. Actually for awhile I was aware of them at the shop but I never got around to trying one.

I couldn't give Firefly the benefit of the doubt when the intro messed things up by saying they found a system with 100s of habitable planets. Now unless aliens, that were never mentioned, were involved I assume they meant to say a section of space. Anyhow I don't give more than 2 chances (3 is so generic). I have never watched Buffy and I only ever watched one epsiode of Angel because he was turned into a muppet. For awhile I thought that green demon guy was Quentin Tarrantino.

[dogscoff]

Yeah, they do lose, but I thought I maybe could trick you into finishing the book=-)

As for the Firefly-planet thing... I guess Joss Whedon created the Firefly's star system using FQM mod=-) Since all FTL travel, which is critical to almost all sci-fi, boils down to little more than handwavium anyway, why not handwave other details like the star system's structure? Especially if it prevents you from having to invent and maintain some convoluted system of warp drives, hyperspace or wormholes.

Basically, they are sacrificing some scientific credibility (something which is INCREDIBLY hard to attain in sci-fi anyway - how many sci-fi shows/ films/ books can you honestly name that a pedantic physicist couldn't pick holes in?) for storytelling and accessibility. This is something TV sci-fi has done since Kirk beamed down to his first polystyrene planet. Call it poetic license. As I said before, Firefly is character driven, the futuristic setting is nothing more than a pretty painted backdrop behind the actors.

Also, we don't yet have a detailled map of any solar system other than our own (and some of that is still inconclusive). We have models and speculation about the shape of other star systems, but most of the exoplanets we have found so far indicate that at least some planetary systems are very very different to this one. For all we know, a system with hundreds of terraformable worlds could be entirely possible.

Buffy is well worth watching, but like many of the best TV series you need to give it time. Like most of the best shows it takes about a series to settle into itself, and after that you can really begin warmng to it. Firefly is unusual in that it was brilliant within about 2 episodes. We'll never know if series 2 would have lived up to the promise of series 1.

[RCCCL]

I voted for Firefly, mainly bacause I like the idea of space pirating/cowboys. To deal with the improbability of hundreds of planets, I like what Dogscoff said:

dogscoff said:

As for the Firefly-planet thing... I guess Joss Whedon created the Firefly's star system using FQM mod=-) Since all FTL travel, which is critical to almost all sci-fi, boils down to little more than handwavium anyway, why not handwave other details like the star system's structure? Especially if it prevents you from having to invent and maintain some convoluted system of warp drives, hyperspace or wormholes.

Basically, they are sacrificing some scientific credibility (something which is INCREDIBLY hard to attain in sci-fi anyway - how many sci-fi shows/ films/ books can you honestly name that a pedantic physicist couldn't pick holes in?) for storytelling and accessibility. This is something TV sci-fi has done since Kirk beamed down to his first polystyrene planet. Call it poetic license. As I said before, Firefly is character driven, the futuristic setting is nothing more than a pretty painted backdrop behind the actors.

Also, we don't yet have a detailled map of any solar system other than our own (and some of that is still inconclusive). We have models and speculation about the shape of other star systems, but most of the exoplanets we have found so far indicate that at least some planetary systems are very very different to this one. For all we know, a system with hundreds of terraformable worlds could be entirely possible.

It is rather easy to pick holes in just about any of the Scifi universes, it can be suprisingly easy to pick holes in the theoretical physics of our own universe.

Some of the others were tempting, I would probably pick DS9 and/or SG1 second/third. The Enterprise would be tempting, but being on "The Starfleet Flagship" would be alot of pressure in my opinion. I'm not to familliar with the Babylon universe.

One other Scifi I like would be the Dune books. For anyone whos has read more than just the first book by Frank Herbert, there is alot going on there. I'm currently reading one of the books by Brian Herbert, it deals with mankinds battle against the machines. I am enjoying it.

[Randallw]

Friendly warning. It's not too wise to mention the latest Dune books to die hard Dune fans. I'll admit they're the only ones I've really read and they were entertaining enough, if lacking in some areas, but recent Dune books are to die hard Dune fans as the SW prequels are to die hard SW fans . Me, I take what I can from things and don't let faults bother me.

Well apart from mixing genres and unsympathetic "good guys"

[RCCCL]

I don't know if I would consider myself a Diehard Dune Fan, but I am most assuredly a big one. I understand it is hard to compare the newer Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson Dune books to Frank Herberts origonal series, different writers will write different, even if he's his son using his notes, but I have still enjoyed the Prelude books and I am almost finished with the Legends books.

I've learned not to be to discriminating when it comes to forms of entertainment. I get alot of time on my hands at work, and with out something to read or do, it can become very tedious.

[MrToxin]

Randallw said:
Friendly warning. It's not too wise to mention the latest Dune books to die hard Dune fans. I'll admit they're the only ones I've really read and they were entertaining enough, if lacking in some areas, but recent Dune books are to die hard Dune fans as the SW prequels are to die hard SW fans . Me, I take what I can from things and don't let faults bother me.

Well apart from mixing genres and unsympathetic "good guys"

Amazing writer or not, Mr. Herbert Jr. was nice enough to take the time to tell us all the stuff that lead up to the Dune universe.

I'll take that.

[capnq]

Randallw said: Maybe the other books are better, I'll never know. I gave it a chance, he failed to interest me adequately. No more giving him money.

If you have access to a good public library, you don't need to spend any more money.

I couldn't give Firefly the benefit of the doubt when the intro messed things up by saying they found a system with 100s of habitable planets. Now unless aliens, that were never mentioned, were involved I assume they meant to say a section of space.

I've seen lengthy discussions on other forums debating how to rationalize that and other incongruities in Firefly. Some people interpret that bit as hundreds of terraformable planets/moons/etc., others prefer multiple stars in a relatively small cluster. There are also debates over whether they have FTL drives, gravity control, and assorted other superscience technologies.

I think one of the problems with the hundred-planet system idea is that as far as we understand gravity, that many planets in one star's habitable zone couldn't maintain stable orbits over time.

[Randallw]

capnq said:
If you have access to a good public library, you don't need to spend any more money

I was in fact at the library today and that occurred to me. I didn't see any of the books though.