90th Division remarks *DELETED*

[Noah_Vaile]

It looks to me that this war has been very poorly planned for and incompetently executed. It is clear that we have been defeated on the battlefield and that the entire world, primarily Western Europe, is against us, disapproving of our beligerant and imperialistic actions in our unprovoked war against Mr. Hitler's Germany and their allies. Our few allies, in Eastern Europe, Great Britain, Australia, et al have lost faith in our ability to bring this war to a successful conclusion and I call upon the United States Senate and congress to bring official censure against Franklin (De Warmonger) Roosevelt, redeploy our troops from the European continent, and pay whatever reparations that Germany feels are called for.

[pdoktar]

Say what? Does not compute.

[PatG]

You may now come to my office to wipe the tea off my screen.

Good one

[PanzerBob]

Noah_Vaile said:
It looks to me that this war has been very poorly planned for and incompetently executed. It is clear that we have been defeated on the battlefield and that the entire world, primarily Western Europe, is against us, disapproving of our beligerant and imperialistic actions in our unprovoked war against Mr. Hitler's Germany and their allies. Our few allies, in Eastern Europe, Great Britain, Australia, et al have lost faith in our ability to bring this war to a successful conclusion and I call upon the United States Senate and congress to bring official censure against Franklin (De Warmonger) Roosevelt, redeploy our troops from the European continent, and pay whatever reparations that Germany feels are called for.

I believe we have an attempt to inject modern day so called morality and politics into historic events, it sounds just as incongruous as it does in this age. IMHO

[narwan]

Indeed, these sort of remarks, even if meant just for comic relief, seriously detract from a relevant debate. I've heard the argument of 'you should be grateful we went to europe to fight and shut up' ad nauseam. I have a very hard time taking anyone who uses it in a discussion serious.

[PatG]

Social commentary aside, there comes a time when a debate devolves into rivet counting Grognardism. Noah's comment reminded me of that and something more: Regardless of any differences between American and German training, and morale - We* Won.

Regardless of whether or not the 90th broke, of how many and what quality sights a given Sherman variant had and if the Japanese ever broke, factors far outside the scope of this game were responsible for the crushing defeat of the Axis powers. Russian man power, industrial capacity and technological superiority; England's ability to draw on a vast empire not just materially but philosopically (the Yanks fit in here too); the US' overwhelming industrial capacity; Canada's resources; Australia and New Zealand's strategic positioning; the occupied territories refusal to give up; none of these things can be depicted in the game yet all are part of why the Axis lost.

If all things were equal, it would matter if the 90th broke, but things never were equal. Too often the cry is "Realism, Realism" yet who is willing to to really put that into effect? How often do we hear calls to create OOBs with under strength infantry due to casualties? How often do people ask that the price of Tigers be doubled or tripled while the price of T-34's be halved to represent historical economic realties? So many Wittmans, so few Isaiah Washingtons, red ball truck driver from Detroit and fewer yet Hans Meyers, 14 year old Hitler Jugend huddling in the ruins of some nameless burnt out city waiting for the Russians with nothing more than a Panzer faust and a bloodstained secondhand feldgrau greatcoat to label them as soldier....

The frikin' Nazis lost and thank the gods for Germany that they did.

<PatG turns, picks up his soapbox, and walks away into the smoke>

*and no I am not a jingoistic American, I am a Canadian of British origin with a Maltese wife and an ex-stepfather from Arnhem and definately more German blood than American in my veins. We = "the good guys"

[PanzerBob]

The frikin' Nazis lost and thank the gods for Germany that they did.

Yes, Pat when the smoke clears, you've hit the nail on the head. Hear, Hear !!!

[narwan]

That's what we call 'kicking in an open door' so sorry that I don't join the bandwagon celebrating the obvious.

The 'who-cares-because-what-happened-is-what-happened' attitude is hardly the appropriate one when putting oneself into the middle of a debate that is not just touching the surface of 'what happened' but tries to go into the reasons why something happened. Some people are actually interested in trying to figure out, through discourse, why the 90th failed in Normandy.

[PatG]

Please excuse my bootprints Narwan and others - I tend to get a little twitchy this time of year. This is an interesting thread please keep it up.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Noah
Yes you are correct
Thats Democracy for you, dont forget there was a thriving Nazi party in America pre American entry into the war. Now Im not saying America shouldnt have entered the War on the side of the allies, removing Nazism was a really great idea, but a lot of Americans didnt see it that way at the time. Dont forget in the 1940 election Roosevelt had to pledge that he would keep America out of the War to get voted in. Roughly half the nation was opposed to even giving financial aid to Britan let alone Fighting. ie a lot of peole didnt want America to get involved and a lot of these people were later drafted. So the American trooper had a bit of a mixed feeling about dying for his country, well not really for his country. Europe wasnt really "his" war, his war was the Pacific war(Those dirty Japs).
Contrast this to the Germans
Goebels had got a whiff of the Morgenthau plan and used it to great effect. The Morgenthau plan included dismantling all of Germanies factories, cutting off all her Raw materials, No mineing of coal or Iron ore, current mines all to be flooded and the German people to subsist on crops and cattle breeding. Roosevelt was actually in favour of this plan for some time. So the German soldiers, those that believed Goebels anyway, was fighting for his country.
Hitler also had the carrot, if they could just hold out long enough wonder weapons would save Germany. Not to mention that the Germans are a proud people, they did after all stop the Romans at the Rhine while the rest of Western Europe the Near East and a lot of other places got conquered. And even before that German warriors got to go the Valhalla for dying bravely.
Best Regards Chuck.